Why you prefer NA over Boost...

[Mr. Win]

Yes indeed...you can basically run it until you start nailing the valves (at which point the lobe specs on the cams would need to be altered to allow the engine to turnover...and then you are no longer in the battle for power)...as long as you have a standalone with full control...

your going to find this needing to happen sooner then youd think.

 

[Installshield 2]

Dude...Did you read what I did to it????...the bottom end is forged everything now...It will be perfectly fine for 12:1...and its already fine for over 8,000rpm...

 

[Gen1GT]

i did it with a local shop as in data i meant money and cost compared to cost of turbo and what you get out of the car. What i meant about best of top end and all that s*** was like the compromise of everything is 11:1 or so say the guy at shop who had prob one of the earliest turbo p5s "The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed..." biggest issue right here the AEM is a joke and ive said since the beginning i know there will be things in NOV of this year that will be more solid and affordable. and yea 12:1 anit much but i think you think this engine to be more bullet proof then it is.

From what I hear, FS only needs rods. With some forged aluminum pistons, you can run even higher compression(better high temp/cooling characteristics).

Most of us are already aware of the cost difference between NA and FI. We still choose the path less walked....

 

[Installshield 2]

yeah the specific heat capacities of Aluminum allow better detonation prevention than steel...its a little weaker in terms of tensile strength...but it way better than cast still...and its lighter by far than both...

Anyway Senor...oops...the s*** I did to the engine was in a different thread...thought it was this one...But yeah, I have been physically building up the engine to handle this NA endevour...its not a stock FS running 12.1:1 static CR...

 

[Mr. Win]

see i didnt know what rods do you have?

yes your right gt the rod is consently the issue.

 

[Installshield 2]

yep...from 2001 on all FS's had a forged crank...and the rods quickly became the weakest link...After tearing them out and doing quick tests...it appears overall they are pretty strong...But the recipricating specs of the assembly, and the long stroke...puts a huge amount of inertial load on them...and they are usually the first to fail...

Senor...I cut a set of 4 rods at school out of preforged billet aluminum...They are more or less a test set simply to see if there is any feasible way to get the FS to breathe up around 8 grand...I had to do some CAD work, as well as SolidWorks Plus for a summer class a few weeks ago, and decided to "keep" my project...

These rods are most likely only slightly stroner than stock...But they are much ligher, and will inherantly take less inerital loads at the "big end" because of that...Aluminum, forged or not, is not the most reliable and powerful metal to use in the engine...and cutting them from billet gives goofy grain patterns at the thrust bearing journals...So in the end, I can't see myself using these for very long...But since they were literally paid for with tuition, I will see how they do...

 

[Gen1GT]

yep...from 2001 on all FS's had a forged crank...and the rods quickly became the weakest link...After tearing them out and doing quick tests...it appears overall they are pretty strong...But the recipricating specs of the assembly, and the long stroke...puts a huge amount of inertial load on them...and they are usually the first to fail...

Senor...I cut a set of 4 rods at school out of preforged billet aluminum...They are more or less a test set simply to see if there is any feasible way to get the FS to breathe up around 8 grand...I had to do some CAD work, as well as SolidWorks Plus for a summer class a few weeks ago, and decided to "keep" my project...

These rods are most likely only slightly stroner than stock...But they are much ligher, and will inherantly take less inerital loads at the "big end" because of that...Aluminum, forged or not, is not the most reliable and powerful metal to use in the engine...and cutting them from billet gives goofy grain patterns at the thrust bearing journals...So in the end, I can't see myself using these for very long...But since they were literally paid for with tuition, I will see how they do...

I hope they work well for you. Maybe having a lighter forged rod, which is probably at least as strong as the factory casts, will keep you more reliable than stock.

 

[Mr. Win]

thats sick then bro i give you far more credit then i thought. youve got it all covered for now. watch the crank sensor for some reason my friends kept going bad, havent figured out why. you ever think about knife edged cranks as well high rpms theere too and better reving. grainy pattern? you try to clean them with a wire brush wheel?

 

[akhilleus]

If andy ever gets his s*** back together u could get aluminum rods from him. I think they were the pauter rods. They were light as hell when i looked at them/handled them. looked very professional too.

 

[Installshield 2]

thats sick then bro i give you far more credit then i thought. youve got it all covered for now. watch the crank sensor for some reason my friends kept going bad, havent figured out why. you ever think about knife edged cranks as well high rpms theere too and better reving. grainy pattern? you try to clean them with a wire brush wheel?

Not the surface texture dude...The grain pattern of the metal...when you forge steel, titanium, or aluminum, you elongate and stretch the "grain" or molecular alignment in a favorable matter for the stress levels of engine load...If you pre-cut rods for your specific application, and THEN forge them...you gain strength around the capped end of the rod, because the grain is forced into a circular patter around that end...When you cut it out of a forged plate of billet, be it steel or aluminum, The grain patter stays straight up and down the rod, and does not circulate around the big end...So you don't gain that slight edge in strength...But it is by far easier to cut them out of billet then to cast them, and then forge them, and then re align everything that the forging process changed...

I have thought a lot about Knifing the crank too...these rods are retardly light...I didn't make them much bigger than the size of the stock pieces (one advantage of lightweight aluminum is that you can use a lot of it in terms of volume, and still be lighter than other metals)...mostly because I really don't know how yet...I could only laser guide the stock pieces into the computer...and then cut the billet aluminum to the same specs...I tried to make them slightly larger, but they appear to be identical...So with that these rods are nutty light, but not very strong...which means I will definately be going with another set later this summer...and at that time is when I will probably knife the crank some...I don't know much about that process though, so I will have to pay someone on to do it...I can test the balance of cranks and assembly's...but I don't really know what to do in terms of machining or rebalancing one after you actually cut pieces off...

 

[Matthew]

All Motors just kicks A** (bow). Plus, building the motor up with just engine parts is amazing. Figuring out what makes your car go faster with parts alone is the challenge. Anyone can boost but to say you ar N/A is a great feeling. Its like an eye brow raiser. (cool)

problem being you have to get some sort of respect for it to become an eye brow raiser...you arent going to beat anything but stock cars and ricers with an all motor protege. respect is being able to beat WRXs, Mustang GTs, MSPs, SRTs, etc, and you wont do that all motor on a protege. people were always like nice engine bay when i was N/A and i got respect for that, but everyone knows your car is slow. since ive been turbo'd, its a whole other community. we turbo guys hang out together at local meets because thats where the power is. say you MIGHT with an average NA person might get 175hp...thats about what SVT focuses put out STOCK, and Spec Vs put out STOCK...and i eat SVTs and spit out Festivas.

 

[Installshield 2]

Now Now matt...I don't know much about your crowd bud...But I must say, unless you can beat everyhting you mentioned there and a whole lot more...I have less respect for turbo'd cars...Its the grey area I loose respect for...Most turbo'd Protege's can't compete with a stock SRT-4 Neon...MP5Jeff's video was the very first that I saw a P5 even close...and He was right beside him the entire way...

Either way you go, I respect those that truely push it...I would find a 180whp NA FS 5 times as impressive as a 200whp turbo'd FS...I don't care for a 500whp FWD, but if someone does that...then I would be impressed with turbo proteges too...All I am getting at is what you mentioned...You turbo your car, you are in a different category of performance...and Protege's still do not do very well in that one either...Spec V's are a disgrace, and SVT's are even slower...so I would hope those would get destroyed...But some kid with a sleeper stock looking WRX, very well could be pushing nearly 350whp and have the traction to put it on the ground...You cannot mess with that...and those of us that stay NA would never be expected to...

I am not disagreeing with you though...Turbos are a lot of fun...But in my area, you are a chump if you are turbo'd and slow...Most turbo proteges are just barely edging out the stock sport compact NA cars (like the mentioned Spec's, SVT's and others)...and only those that are stock...A economy wagonoid P5 with 170whp NA that can run with a stock RSX type S would be impressive though, to me anyway...

In the end all i am saying that as far as proteges go...NA is an excuse to be slow..."most" turbo'd protege's are still really slow on the grand scale of things...But that excuse for being slow is no longer there...Most guys don't want to hear why you haven't even gained 100whp when you have a turbo hangin' out in there...they won't listen to the ECU problems or how hard it is to get reliable power out of this engine...On the other hand though everyone knows how hard NA is...especially on a less popular engine...So yes, a FS pushed to the limit of about 190whp NA...will still be slow...but the excuse for being slow will still exist...

 

[marashka]

N/A is definately more challenging route to take, but turbo is where the power at. Now I agree with Installshield 2 that boosted protege is not as fast as a turbo car should be, but think of the money issue....how much are you going to put in n/a fs to pull off 14.5?
i can do that with 300 dollars on top of my MSP. its a whole different ball game once you have a turbo, its easier and cheaper way to go....although i do not consider myself cheating, essentually its just another bolt on, on the same engine.

p.s there is no way to squeese out the amount of power from n/a any motor, comparing to turbo any motor.

 

[Gen1GT]

I don't think anyone claimed an NA car could make as much power as a turbo car. But when I'm making 170whp(200crank) from my 1.8, that was suppoosed to make 125 from the factory, well that's a 60% increase in power without a turbo. THAT is impressive. Mind you, for the same amount of money I'm going to spend, I could have 300whp in my little BP, but it's just not the same. I'm with Install on this one.......

Install, if you get your crank knife-edged, the same machine who does that mind of work can balance it too. I'm going to have mine balanced to 10,000rpm(pretty standard for the most part), and in addition to the windage losses it frees up, you save a couple lbs off the crank with knife-edging. I'm going to have my crank journals cross-drilled too. You can never be too cautious when it comes to oil supply.

edit-and as far as speed goes, I'm almost as fast as a Mazdaspeed Protege, and I'm only at 117whp.......

 

[marashka]

all that turbo does is makes it easier to make more power.Does it take out some fun out of modifying? maybe, but isn't it fun to go a LOT faster with the turn of the knob? or put the same time and money as N/A car in the internals and tuning and you are able to double the output. the only thing that attracts me more to N/A is the respect you get from people who know a thing or two about cars, after you made an imressive 110hp per liter without the forced induction. its good if you have the time, money and desire to do it. i'd rather prefer the easy way.

 

[akhilleus]

Honestly stock msp's arent that fast, neither are wrx's. I have hung with both no problem. Its all about when the power comes on. I might not be able to hang at high speeds, over 100, but i have no problem below 80 and in reality how often do u get to go over 100mph, at least in NJ. And obviously it is so much easier to get power out of a turbo. but who cares which is "better" we all have different goals here, and foundations to work on, Ultimately we all want to do our own thing and that may or may not involve a turbo or NA setup.

 

[20EVOLUTION01]

See some people don't see the perspective in N/A. I am not trying to go the easy route, I could care less if I can beat a WRX, EVO, or anything else. I like my car how it is. Yes I wish they could have placed more tuning into the engine, (FS-DE), but that is our challenge now. I love a challenge, to be able to squeze out as much from my N/A power vehicle. I am about driving my car, and also making it handle great. I am amazed at the power Gen1GT and Installshield 2 have done to get where they are now. I respect them cuz they have the Knownledge to make there cars perform the way they do. I only wish I had the knowledge they have now to apply it to my MP. I have some knowledge from reading a lot about the engines from mazda but I only wish I knew more about it. Yes I like turbos, I bought my little brother a 1985 Mits Starion 2.6 Turbo Intercooled. I love the sound of the turbo but I rather have a N/A car. 1985 and 1986 were the most trouble some year for the Mitsubishi Starion but I love a challenge. I could care less if people make fun of my mods. I just wish I could test them to see if I am actually making power and not robbing my engine.

I remember the last time I went to the track I beat a Honda Accord with a highly modifies engine and he was using NOS. Best time was 16.8 at the 1/4. I only had an SRI, Muffler, and better tires. Maybe he didn't have it tuned right but he was pissed. He then went and bought an H22 cuz I beat him. I guess he didn't like his car after that. I would rather have the best handling for road and track than be the fastest.

Respect to those who are N/A and are staying N/A. My eyebrow raises to you guuys (2thumbs)

 

[Installshield 2]

haha thanks man...I don't think I know much at all..Gen1 does I feel though...

But I should clarify too...I couldn't care less what others feel about what I do to my p5 either..especially those outside of this community...and like you I could care less about what cars I can or cannot beat......It boils down to who works the hardest I guess...I don't want anyone to feel I have no respect for them because they have a turbo or whatever...that is not the case at all...Its just in my mind I would rather try something new, and do what everyone said was a waste of time...It may be a waste of time in the long run...but it is still a lot of fun...Projects cars are rarely ever fully completed...

Gen1...The knifing thing:...I have access to the equipment to cut it myself...and I could easily do that part...but I have little experience rebalancing something of that complexity...that is what I meant...and after the standalone coming in June, I have little money to pay someone to do the whole knifing thing...So I am stuck at this point as far as that is concerned...

 

[Installshield 2]

all that turbo does is makes it easier to make more power.Does it take out some fun out of modifying? maybe, but isn't it fun to go a LOT faster with the turn of the knob? or put the same time and money as N/A car in the internals and tuning and you are able to double the output. the only thing that attracts me more to N/A is the respect you get from people who know a thing or two about cars, after you made an imressive 110hp per liter without the forced induction. its good if you have the time, money and desire to do it. i'd rather prefer the easy way.

This is dead on...I love turbo cars...I don't want to give off the impression that I am all anti turbo's...But anyone that knows the first thing about cars, knows what it means to make north of 100bhp/liter...Mustang and Camaro drivers dream of numbers like that, if they even understand that such a feat is possible...that is how I view others too...My neighbor has a Black RSX Type S, with tons of Mugen mods and some internal work...The 2.0L K20 revs to over 9000 rpm, and is reportedly making nearly 220whp on stock compression...And his friend comes over nearly everynight in a 2nd Gen Eclipse GS-T...that he bought used for 8 grand...he has not touched anything on it, and it was making 300whp when he purchased it...And he feels he owns the world...

that is what bothers me about it...You talk about a 911 or something around him, and he feels his car is better, simply because it makes slightly more power...I don't respect people like that...and he didn't even build up the car...It basically took a boost controller, a downpipe, exhaust, new intercooler, and some fuel management to get those numbers...No hard work, no research...Just did what countless other Eclipse owners did, and he is now envied by every Cavalier driver in town...

 

[shinzen]

N/A is a blast when done right- I'll admit what made me so interested in N/A was my buddies 92 integra- over 200whp, redlines at 10k and will absolutely tear your head off. When the cams really kick in, it almost feels like you are in a turbo car- knife-edged, 5 angle valve job- titanium valve springs blueprinted and balanced- these things can be done to damn near any motor and pull a lot more out of it- the drawback is the whole build cost a lot of money, but there isn't another one like it that I have seen- and true tuners will definitely give you some respect for a car that looks only lightly modified on the exterior but will tear it up on a track.