Why such low brand perception?

[professorhank]

This is more about Mazda and not specifically the 5. I think most of us here are repeat Mazda owners so we're in on the secret but I simply can't understand what Mazda has to do to improve its brand perception. They rank as the lowest Asian automaker below even Suzuki and Kia. And what exactly did Subaru do to get such a large jump in perception?

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/aut...let-ford-and-subaru-jump-in-brand-perception/

The Miata is still recognized as the quintessential sporty roadster that the average Joe can afford. The 3 ranks among the tops in the small car segment. The 5 is also a "recommended" model on CR. The RX-8 adds to the very recognizable "zoom-zoom" brand image. The CX-9 was named SUV of the Year by MT. C&D had 2 Mazdas on its 10 Best list this year with only 1 other Asian carmaker making the list (Honda).

Negatives in my mind: The 6 is the weakest link which gets amplified by the hyperactive mid-size market. Lack of a separate luxury division like the Big 3 Japanese brands have. Finally, I think the 2 coming to North America soon could further reinforce this perception that Mazdas are "cheap".

 

[coolmazda5]

I believe part of it is due to the low volume sales in the US (and I say US, because in Canada the Mazda brand perception seems to be much higher, and that seems to be part of their used car value). And in the UK is also one of the top brands...

I believe Ford deserves that 2nd place, their cars are just getting really good (and nice too), but Toyota doesn't. If you see the latest scary recalls that it has launched lately it seems that their quality has gone down...

Toyota Top Record Year for Safety Recalls

But anyway as it says in the article, I think that sums it all:

For consumers, it's important to remember that brand perception often reflects distortions of reality, as is discussed in the following sections. It pays to look beyond your impressions and do your homework, especially in the areas that are most important to you.

 

[lindsayt]

Funny, I just bought my first Mazda and have always perceived Mazda as a small niche company meant to make everyday cars geared toward enthusiasts. It's a small market and Mazda can't grow if they stick with that but they have a loyal following who will stick with them if they stay with it. Most people I know don't want a Mazda for perceptions that they're "too stiff" or not easy or comfy enough; while they're not perceived to be as reliable as Toyota or Honda, I've never heard anybody indicate they're *unreliable*. All this said to me that Mazda is right where I want them, making a product for me.

Personally I think the new 6 is the weak link too but for different reasons - it's too conventional, too Toyota, too much about polish and numbers, and not enough about "zoom-zoom". All the other products - including the 5 - are about "zoom-zoom". The new 6 is more powerful, more refined, and faster than the old 6; but while the old 6 was a driver's car, the new one is an accountant's car. All their other cars are drivers' cars.

 

[a10thunder]

If you look at Consumer Reports and JD Power surveys, Mazda scores pretty low when it comes to reliability, owner satisfaction, and customer loyalty. Outside of this forum, I have never met anyone that has owned more than one Mazda. I do know a lot of people who has had bad experiences with Mazdas, especially models with automatic transmissions.

I have owned Subarus, Hondas, Toyotas, and the Mazda5. My Mazda5 ownership experience has been the worst so far. I have a lot of small but annoying problems with the car. Mazda's quality and refinement simply isn't on par with the other automakers. I enjoy the utility and handling of the 5, but I'll be looking elsewhere for our next family vehicle.

Unlike Mazda, Subaru has done a very good job of putting out quality vehicles and building up its brand image. I have owned a WRX and loved it. I've recommended Subaru to family members and they have become repeat customers.

 

[DKaz]

I think in the US, the Ford-Mazda alliance certainly did not help Mazda's image much.

In Canada, we hardly associate the two companies together. The Mazda 3 has consistently been #2 or #3 in sales, behind the Civic and sometimes behind the Corolla. My 2008 Corolla wasn't that great... awesome fuel economy sure but it developed a rattle under the dash within a few thousand kms and the seat just didn't provide adequate thigh support -- I was overjoyed when I was able to drive for more than an hour at a time in my Mazda 5 without having fatigued thighs.

Everyone has different preferences anyway. I will do a little bit more maintenance work and use a bit more fuel if that means I get a really enjoyable driving experience. Others couldn't care less about driving a box on wheels so long as their car is trouble free. We have plenty of competition providing the (almost) perfect car for us.

 

[coolmazda5]

Good points,

I traded-in a Honda for my 06 and even with all the annoying things that came with (first year model) my experience has been far superior than the Honda one. 2 issues with the Honda that left me stranded either on dangerous highway situations or actually ruining a long awaited a vacation weekend (it is not fun to find a Honda dealer on a holiday or trying to borrow tools from the hotel to see if you can fix it yourself. AAA would just haul the car that day, workshops were all closed). All this with a car with 40K miles (??)

The Mazdas, while with annoying issues, has not let us stranded anywhere...

My 08 so far so good (knock on wood), zero problems to report

But oh well, I guess I don't make the statistics

 

[CaptainSpalding]

I think it's a conscious decision by Mazda USA to be perceived as an inexpensive brand. There are features available outside the U.S. on the 5 that can't be had in the US for any amount of money - the auto-closing rear doors, the backup camera, etc. - features that I would gladly have paid for. But Mazda wants to keep the cost down.

I owned my first Mazda back in 1984, an RX-7. In those days the RX-7 was considered as the best sports car value for the money. Then Mazda introduced the Miata, which became the new poor man's sports car, and the RX-7 was upscaled. I think the upscaling of the RX-7 wasn't very successful for Mazda, and their other upscale attempt, the Millenia, received a cool reception as well. Today it would seem that in the U.S. at least the legacy of the early RX-7 and the Miata as "cheap" sports cars has shaped the public perception of the brand to such an extent that Mazda USA thinks it would be too difficult to change.

But then again, Mazda has never spent the kind of money on advertising that its competitors have. I remember hearing when I had my RX-7 that Mazda, or Matsuda, had a bit of an inferiority complex with regard to Honda, Toyota, and Datsun/Nissan, because Mazda's earliest roots were in heavy machinery and not automobile manufacturing. If that's true, maybe it colors their whole self image, and is reflected in their marketing.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

It all boils down to Marketing hype

IMO

Mazda's brand perception is all about the lack of marketing dollars they choose to spend on their brand and the spin control that other manufacturers use to squash any bad press that inevitably comes up with any mass manufacturered product. Mazda is a small company and as such only has a certain amount of cash to work with. In my experience (on my 7th Mazda product) Mazda chooses to put their money in engineering and design. This is one reason why prior to Ford, Mazda almost went bankrupt. Ford came in and gave them the money they needed to build their brand, but still compared to the massive reserves of Honda and Toyota (BTW Subaru is now owned partially by Toyota) Mazda doesn't have the cash to spend on marketing their brand and creating the "reliability mythology" of Toyota and Honda. There was one point where Mazda quality was behind other Japanese manufacturers but that is simply not true now. Dollar for dollar Mazda builds cars that are just as reliable and well screwed together as Toyota and Honda. The difference is that Toyota and Honda have gigantic marketing machines that cover up any reliability/quality issues that crop up. Think about it, unless someone does the right research all you ever hear about Toyota and Honda is how good they are. Much of this is driven by marketing hype, while Mazda has no marketing shield to protect them from the inevitable periodic quality issues that effect EVERY manufacturer at one time or another.

Personally you couldn't pay me enough to buy a Toyota or Honda. I personally believe that both these companies (as well as Subaru) have grown fat and lazy whihc is reflected in the growning mediocrity of their product line. Except for perceived reliability I challenge anyone to cite one product in the Toyota or Honda line that betters a Mazda product in engineering and design. One...

The truth is there aren't any. Sure People will gripe about subjectively lower quality plastics or issues that some forum has blown completely out of proportion, but closer inspection will reveal that those reports are in the statistical noise floor and are no different than what Toyota and Honda experience with their products. The difference again is that one bad experience with a Mazda tends to stick and grow into many, while the marketing machine of Toyota and Honda squash any negativity that even tries to grown from it's customer base. People are brianwashed into believing Honda and Toyota are perfect when they are not. It's a myth that is driven by brilliant and extremely costly marketing.

BTW, those of you who consider the new 6 the weak link in Mazda's zoom-zoom philosophy really need to drive one hard. Having owned proteges, an Mz3, an MS3 and a Mz5, I can honestly say that the new 6 defintely has the zoom-zoom gene and the same split personality I've found in all my Mazdas. Drive it normally and it feels precise and responsive, while being comfortable and reliable. Drive it hard and it's bares it teeth and reveals a very zoom-zoom personality, while possessing excellent refinement. Like I've said elsewhere in this forum. The new 6 is more Audi than Toyota.

IMO I think those of you who keep putting down the new 6 maybe succumbing to some of that media-fueled nonsense that is undermining the Mazda brand.

I personally like where Mazda is. It's a small, passionate company that speaks to what I value in transportation. Like many of you who have been loyal to Mazda I like them becasue they are one of the best kept secrets out there.

Oh and for those of you who soley rely on statistics and metrics to make decisions, know that numbers and stats can and do superficially reinforce broad marketing claims e.g. JD Power/Consumer reports statistics with inaccurate reliability ratings.

 

[coolmazda5]

Some Notes from the same Consumer Reports

, so it is just perception, it might take time to change...

With an overall score of 78 out of 100 points, Honda was followed closely by Subaru (75), and Toyota (74) in the overall score. Subaru is also the only automaker with 100% of its tested vehicles Recommended, although it has a relatively small model lineup. Mazda (73), came in 4th, followed by Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volkswagen, and BMW, all tied at 72.

Of the Asian automakers, Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, and Hyundai improved their overall scores. Nissan and Hyundai also improved their reliability rating. Of the four, Hyundai showed the most improvement, increasing its overall score from 66 to 70. The Hyundai Genesis also topped Consumer Reports’ upscale-sedan ratings, contributing to the automakers continued progress.

Source

Release Date: Feb 26, 2009
Consumer Reports’ Automaker Report Cards: Honda Leads Again, Mercedes-Benz Improves, Chrysler Lags

http://pressroom.consumerreports.or...n-mercedes-benz-improves-chrysler-lags-1.html

 

[mpvue]

I don't care about brand perception, I buy what I want. so I don't read consumer reports.
all the 'unpopular' cars I've owned have been very good for me, mainly mazdas and saturns for the last few years. and, although the mazdas have been less than reliable than the saturns overall, I still like them.
my current 5 is my 5th mazda btw. I had 2 '94 626's, a '00 MPV and a '96 MPV. saturns were a '02 L200, an '04 VUE, and a modded '93 SC1.

 

[professorhank]

Thanks everyone for replying. I agree with most everything written, esp. pertaining to the marketing hype angle. I honestly believe that if you don't drive like a maniac, a vast majority of cars (even those that habitually score low on reliability tests) will last 100000 miles on just routine maintenance and many could last 150000+. So to me, owning a car for several years boils down to driving enjoyment and Kansei Engineering. When was the last time you heard that term? I just find it tiresome to constantly explain/describe to people who'll only ever drive Hondas/Toyotas what I drive and why I drive it. When I first looked at the list, I wasn't expecting Mazda to be near the top but I certainly wasn't expecting them to be last in Asian automakers behind Suzuki and Kia. In another article, Kia was the only Asian automaker to make the list of top 10 worst resale value models.

 

[62Lincoln]

I think in the US, the Ford-Mazda alliance certainly did not help Mazda's image much.

Outside the enthusiast community, there weren't 5 people in the U.S. that were even aware of the Ford-Mazda alliance. That's grasping for straws.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

A little hard on the 6...

Funny, I just bought my first Mazda and have always perceived Mazda as a small niche company meant to make everyday cars geared toward enthusiasts. It's a small market and Mazda can't grow if they stick with that but they have a loyal following who will stick with them if they stay with it. Most people I know don't want a Mazda for perceptions that they're "too stiff" or not easy or comfy enough; while they're not perceived to be as reliable as Toyota or Honda, I've never heard anybody indicate they're *unreliable*. All this said to me that Mazda is right where I want them, making a product for me.

Personally I think the new 6 is the weak link too but for different reasons - it's too conventional, too Toyota, too much about polish and numbers, and not enough about "zoom-zoom". All the other products - including the 5 - are about "zoom-zoom". The new 6 is more powerful, more refined, and faster than the old 6; but while the old 6 was a driver's car, the new one is an accountant's car. All their other cars are drivers' cars.

I'm wondering if you've driven the 6. When I first test drove it I thought it was a little soft, but that impression is long gone since I've gotten a chance to push it a bit. While the 6 has gotten more grown up, Coming from an MS3 I think it's still a fun and responsive driver's car. I think calling it an accountants car is an unfair assessment, especially if you haven't had a chance to wring the V6's little neck and throw it into a curve. IMO

 

[coolmazda5]

My favorite Mazda comment from Don Romano (Mazda Canada)

I dont ever see Mazda as being a mainstream company. We were [once] a mainstream company and we failed. We found our souls when we realized we werent going to out-Toyota Toyota or out-Honda Honda; when we decided we were going to be our own company. That part of our soul that we found back in 1999 to 2000 is going to lead us for the next 10 to 20 years, so that we continue to push ourselves [toward the] enthusiasts, the people who are emotionally connected to their cars [and who are] not just buying transportation. [This] will help differentiate us from other players that are going to enter the market that are not here today as well as those companies that are here but are trying to be everything to everybody. We are the brand choice for automotive enthusiasts. Were not trying to be the biggest.

[driving.ca]

 

[Zoom5Zoom]

I will stand by any mazda product....

When GM folds most US customers will want to be like the jones ...then they will start buying mazdas

 

[lindsayt]

I'm wondering if you've driven the 6. When I first test drove it I thought it was a little soft, but that impression is long gone since I've gotten a chance to push it a bit. While the 6 has gotten more grown up, Coming from an MS3 I think it's still a fun and responsive driver's car. I think calling it an accountants car is an unfair assessment, especially if you haven't had a chance to wring the V6's little neck and throw it into a curve. IMO

A few things:

• my wife is an accountant
• I hate automatics and won't buy one.
• I *loved* the old 6 and hoped to buy one before it was replaced by the new one. The 4-cyl paired withe MT was zippy and very "zoom-zoom" if a bit slow. The v6 with MT was more powerful and only a little less zoom-zoom.
• I have no loyalty to any brand and have never bought two vehicles of the same make
• I don't give a damn what consumer reports says.

So with all that in mind, I wasn't exactly objective in test driving the new 6 as I'd never buy it *and* I was annoyed they discontinued it for the new 6. As somebody who bought it, clearly your priorities are different from mine. But I personally don't think *any* car can claim to be an enthusiast's car if it's not available in any trim level with a clutch pedal. That's my #1 criterion, and Mazda puts clutches in more of its cars than any other non-premium brand.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

About that manual...

A few things:

• my wife is an accountant
• I hate automatics and won't buy one.
• I *loved* the old 6 and hoped to buy one before it was replaced by the new one. The 4-cyl paired withe MT was zippy and very "zoom-zoom" if a bit slow. The v6 with MT was more powerful and only a little less zoom-zoom.
• I have no loyalty to any brand and have never bought two vehicles of the same make
• I don't give a damn what consumer reports says.

So with all that in mind, I wasn't exactly objective in test driving the new 6 as I'd never buy it *and* I was annoyed they discontinued it for the new 6. As somebody who bought it, clearly your priorities are different from mine. But I personally don't think *any* car can claim to be an enthusiast's car if it's not available in any trim level with a clutch pedal. That's my #1 criterion, and Mazda puts clutches in more of its cars than any other non-premium brand.

I, more than anyone else, would agree that without a clutch a car isn't really a car. The reality is though that more cars- including some very expensive enthusiast cars, are coming with an auto of some kind. Call it DSG, call it tiptronic call it whatever but automatics are becoming more prevalent.

I defintely pained over the thought of having an auto (the 6 is my first EVER). I intially felt like I sold out but, like everything, it was about compromise and balancing the pro's with the con's. The auto was the only real con with the V6. Everything else about the car is excellent. I don't know why Mazda didn't give us enthusiats an manual in the 6 V6. Maybe it was cost, maybe they didn't have a manual strong enough or geared right for the V6. Maybe they plan on releasing an manual in 2011? I don't know.

What I do know is that even with the auto (a very good one) I'm liking the 6. The manual mode, while clutchless and less involving does have it's benefits- among them much faster shifts when compared to a manual. I also knew that I would rather buy a Mazda with an auto rather than any other make because I believe in Mazda's philosophy.

That's not to say that I won't go back to a manual or hope that Mazda does offer the next 6 in a manual.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

+1

Outside the enthusiast community, there weren't 5 people in the U.S. that were even aware of the Ford-Mazda alliance. That's grasping for straws.

Yeah, not many lay people know/knew about the Ford/Mazda alliance.

 

[mpvue]

manuals in this country just don't sell that well, regardless of what enthusiasts on fan sites believe. many cars that were available w/ clutches just aren't anymore (like 1/2 ton pickups).
as for the 5, mazda can't afford to offer all trim options when they know they just won't sell enough to make it worth it.
ask anyone who sells cars, they'll tell you that manuals sit on the lot for a long time. and resale value is much less. it's just how it is in the US.

 

[lindsayt]

manuals in this country just don't sell that well, regardless of what enthusiasts on fan sites believe. many cars that were available w/ clutches just aren't anymore (like 1/2 ton pickups).
as for the 5, mazda can't afford to offer all trim options when they know they just won't sell enough to make it worth it.
ask anyone who sells cars, they'll tell you that manuals sit on the lot for a long time. and resale value is much less. it's just how it is in the US.

I don't think anybody's claiming manuals sell well - Americans want convenience, not engagement. That doesn't mean we can't lament that, but sadly it seems likely that fewer and fewer makes will continue to offer several models with sticks. Hyundai for instance offers very few sticks now.

But I think Mazda is *the* brand that continues to make sticks available, which means they'll get a big chunk of the remainder of stick enthusiasts. I hope Mada thinks that's worth it.