Why not try this piggyback?

[Fast lane]

TURFBURN WHAT RATIO ARE THE GEARS GOING TO BE AND WHAT GEARS WILL YOU BE MAKING, AND IF YOU HAVE IT; AROUND WHAT PRICE RANGE PER GEAR OR SET.
tHANKS,
MATT

 

[RyanJayG]

hey, your caps is stuck on

 

[TurfBurn]

I
for the tranny the billet shift forks Beau is making will go a VERY long way in making our trannys hold up. and there are the EMCO gears and whatever Turf is trying to get worked out.. both are better than cryo'd gears.

Shifting properly helps . It's not actually the fork itself that has a problem, it's the actuation arm on the fork, the part that rides the shift collars to make the movement, that actually snaps off.

cryo or heat treating metal is an attempt to line up the grains of the metal, which works quite well.. but forging is hammering the metal into have closer, tighter grains... this makes it much stronger. then add shot peening to them, this compacts the outer layer of metal (kinda like forging the outer layer) as well as removing any imperfections where cracks can start.

Yeah Cryo DOES stress relieve the metal becaues of the thermal cycling, but that is also because it is partially heat treated during the operation. But the claims of more martensite and the like is very questionable for many reasons... one martensite doesn't exist EVER in aluminum, and second you'd be able to see that in a metallurgical sample, and to date I don't believe that's been fully proven from what research I've done. But obviously I could have overlooked something.

if you do these two things internally to the tranny, add an LSD, either a welded 1 series MSP, or a quaife (better choice, but more expensive) and then get better axles and I dont think any power you can make in a protege can break it.

Yeah it'll be curious to see what starts breaking once gears and axles and diffs are all upgraded.

 

[Fast lane]

thanks, oh and is there a page dedicated to the gear sets, i would definetly get in on this i had no clue there was some one willing to make new forged gears..

hey, your caps is stuck on

 

[TurfBurn]

TURFBURN WHAT RATIO ARE THE GEARS GOING TO BE AND WHAT GEARS WILL YOU BE MAKING, AND IF YOU HAVE IT; AROUND WHAT PRICE RANGE PER GEAR OR SET.
tHANKS,
MATT

Any ratio

The price is the part I'm working on right now. I have to get drawings to the company so they can quote. Then all the gears will be about the same price. I'll be modeling them so that I should be able to get it setup to be reasonably easy for me to alter ratios whenever someone requests since the parts will be one off made to order parts. So I'll update as I make progress, but I'm just majorly hung up on the drawings part of it at this point. (Don't have gears out of a tranny yet to make drawings from.)

Later

Steve
NSN Motorsports

 

[TurfBurn]

thanks, oh and is there a page dedicated to the gear sets, i would definetly get in on this i had no clue there was some one willing to make new forged gears..

It's something I've been working on for about a month. There are a few sources, EMCO can do them, you can get ones form Mazdamotorsports for about 1000 a gear (1st, 2nd, etc, which is actually two gears, but one "gear" for the tranny if you follow).

I'm hoping to try and halve that cost. But no idea if that will happen or not. I will shop around all over the nation until I get it where I want it.

And I do have a thread about it somewhere... search for custom forged gears.

Later!

Steve

 

[RyanJayG]

Yeah Cryo DOES stress relieve the metal becaues of the thermal cycling, but that is also because it is partially heat treated during the operation. But the claims of more martensite and the like is very questionable for many reasons... one martensite doesn't exist EVER in aluminum, and second you'd be able to see that in a metallurgical sample, and to date I don't believe that's been fully proven from what research I've done. But obviously I could have overlooked something.

what aluminum are you talking about? I wouldn't bother cry treating anyways. I think heat treating is much better, and it has been proven to create a martensite grain sturcture in steel.

we have $80,000 steel beams with a 99.95% perfection heat treated, and we do Rockwell and Brinell tests before and after.

as for the reason for such perfection we put such increadible stress on these steel beams causing them to resonate. I can show you video's if you want

 

[MPNick]

You mean redoing the entire upper oil pan out of high strength billet? that'd be a price piece to say the least.

Yes, that is what I made for the race truck. It held 1,000hp. The main caps and OPSR[oil pan support rail are all big hunk on 7075. It started out over 100lbs. When I was done I had it down to 45lbs.

Yes the cost was high. Over three weeks of machine time. The cost was just under $4,000.00. Anybody want one? With it the block will be able to withstand as much power as you dare.

 

[TurfBurn]

what aluminum are you talking about? I wouldn't bother cry treating anyways. I think heat treating is much better, and it has been proven to create a martensite grain sturcture in steel.

we have $80,000 steel beams with a 99.95% perfection heat treated, and we do Rockwell and Brinell tests before and after.

as for the reason for such perfection we put such increadible stress on these steel beams causing them to resonate. I can show you video's if you want

I was just mentioning aluminum because we have enough parts that are.. pistons and head being big ones.

 

[TurfBurn]

Yes, that is what I made for the race truck. It held 1,000hp. The main caps and OPSR[oil pan support rail are all big hunk on 7075. It started out over 100lbs. When I was done I had it down to 45lbs.

Yes the cost was high. Over three weeks of machine time. The cost was just under $4,000.00. Anybody want one? With it the block will be able to withstand as much power as you dare.

Sign me up!

 

[MPNick]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Cryo doesn't do jack for strength. It does seem to have anecdotal evidence toward wear and distortion, but NOT for strength. So cryoing a tranny will do nothing. And we have NO proof among anybody on this car for sure of it being worthwhile.

Here is what I have seen. We used to break the pinion gears, halfshafts and the gears in the T56 tranns on very built Vipers. All were drag cars and just about every 15 to 20 passes one of parts would break.

Then we started to have all of them cryoed. They lasted twice as long as they were cryoed. I know some shop did it to the whole engine. They feel it is a better to remove stress. I have alsos had rotors done this way. On one type of car we do the rotors have a real bad warpage problem after a few hard heat cycles. After the cryo they did last longer.

One other place that I have seen it work is in tooling. The mill bits and some other cutting bit do last longer.

Take with a grain of salt.

 

[Kooldino]

The million dollar question is can you make more peak WHP with C16 in your car? Just do not say yes right away, you may not be able to.

Sure I could. Even if I didn't add any more boost, I could run more aggressive timing. That alone would boost my power.

 

[TurfBurn]

I do agree that it stress relieves parts, which then will help with overall strength because you don't have fracture initiation points. BUT the thing people forget is that heat treatment does that as well. And sometimes more effectively. So if you say thermal treat something then yeah it'll help. The toss up is do you go cryo or do you go standard heat treatment.

It does help, but if a part is a weak material, it won't really help. It's not like the tensile strength is suddenly massively different, you need a new alloy to do that in all reality.

Stress relieving any part by any method is a good thing and will help it last longer!

 

[Kooldino]

Get them babies working good and nice. Do not want to hear any reasons why things did not work out.

Then I won't show up unless I'm 100% sure things are good to go. If something happens and I have to rebuild half the motor the night before the dyno, I just won't come the next day.

Got any guess on your output? 270whp, 280whp, 290whp?????

I'd say at least 270whp, hopefully 280.

Are we leading a lamb to the slaughter house?

??

 

[Kooldino]

Yes rod and mains.

Why not have two motors and swap them back and forth?

 

[MPNick]

Sure I could. Even if I didn't add any more boost, I could run more aggressive timing. That alone would boost my power.

Fine, give me a number. How much with 93 and how much with C16.

 

[Kooldino]

Dana, how can I change my vote about this thread? I now like it more then before.

I think you're stuck once you vote.

 

[MPNick]

Then I won't show up unless I'm 100% sure things are good to go. If something happens and I have to rebuild half the motor the night before the dyno, I just won't come the next day.


I'd say at least 270whp, hopefully 280.




??

Lets not damage the engine. The day before or anyday after.

280 on 93 octane. What about C16?

Joke only.

 

[MPNick]

I think you're stuck once you vote.

recount?

 

[RyanJayG]

cryo treating without heat treating = pointless

http://www.metal-wear.com/Cryogenics_heattreat.htm

this is just one article to back up what I know... all the engineering manuals are at work and I'm not about to go get them.