Why do I get distortion with this setup?

[gt3_dk]

Yo everyone,

I recently upgraded the sound system in my not-so-new 1999 LX because one front speaker died and my head unit had to be hit for the LCD to come back on and many other reasons.... I bought a Pioneer DEH-3700MP head unit (22x4 RMS, Mosfet 50x4 peak). I have some
"Power Acoustik" front speakers rated 220W peak (it doesn't tell me the RMS) and some rear "Pyle plus" PLS693 rated 120W RMS and 240W max. I know the speakers aren't teh best but they were on sale like 50% off to leave space for new models. { More info Pioneer Head Unit Link - Power Acoustik front speakers - Pyle Plus rear speakers }

Okay, so the speakers can *apparently* handle all this power but why do I get distortion? When I'm listening to low level music, even with the "Super Bass" EQ setting it sounds good and fine, but when I get past the 45-50 volume level on my head unit (I think it goes to 100... I never checked and the book doesn't say) It starts to distort. So I turn the EQ settings to "Flat" and then I can get up to maybe 63 with some songs if I'm lucky. Well this happens when I'm listening to Hip-Hop (that's pretty much all I listen to while driving) but I haven't had time to test the rest yet like rock or whatever but I'm sure it will do the same.

So, is it the head unit giving out s*** sound at that level? (I thoght that's what MOSFET was for...) Is it the speakers that are just distorted by the bass (even when it's low eq bass and they have seperate cones/tweeters for the mids and highs?). Or is it just the front doors and back speakers mounts that shake so much it gives me the impression the sound is garbled up? Well they don't actually shake THAT much but like I tested my rear speakers with the back "dash" (dunno what else to call it lol) off and I saw the whole thing vibrate up and down like a mofo at most about a 1/4 inch up and down.

I know a possible solution would be to buy a subwoofer and turn the head unit 's EQ bass to minimun but I want to know why it's doing this with mid/high sounds since it's on diff cones.

BTW, if I get an amp with one of those "remotes" for my sub, even if the headunit is at the lowest bass setting will I still be able to adjust the gain (or bass boost if thats what's on the remote) ??? Also another related question that might make more sense than the previous one, does the head unit's EQ only apply to the 4 speakers connected to it or does it also affect the sound of the RCA pre-outs.

Thanks in advance for any useful info...

 

[Satiagraha]

Well, if anything, your speakers are underpowered. But that isn't much of a problem. Could be bad craftsmanship in either the HU or the speakers, but I doubt it. It sounds like your speakers are just freaking out at the range of frequencies that it's getting. Your speakers' freq responce doesn't cover the low sounds that some of the songs include, and they distort when they try to produce them.

Solution: cutoff. You cut off the low frequencies so that they're not being sent to the speakers and the speakers aren't trying to produce those sounds. Lowering the bottom band on your equalizer helps with this, but a cutoff would be better. See if your HU has anything like HPF/LPF settings or anything.

Ideally, you would get a subwoofer, and that sub would cover the low frequencies that are cut off by from the other speakers.

 

[gt3_dk]

Ok thanks that pretty much confirmed what I thought.. unfortunately my HU doesn't have a HPF. I guess I could of invested a little more in it but it was on a really good sale so I jumped out and bought it before it was too late. (Like I said my stock one was dieing so I had to act quick before driving in silence...)

Okay, but do you know if changing the EQ settings on the HU only affects the speakers or does it also affect the sound coming from the RCA? I don't wanna end up buying a sub and amp that won't even hit hard because the bas is turned down to the max... (screwy) I'm sure if I turn the EQ to the minimum the mids/highs will be able to go high enough for me anyways though...

Would adding a box or some dynamat in the doors make my speakers sound louder/better than free air?

 

[1sty]

Yes, changing the EQ settings effects both speaker outputs and RCA outputs. You have 2 problems.

1. Your speakers simply can not handle sub bass. None really can. So the more you jack up the bass on them, the earlier they call it quits and sound like ass.

2. Bumping up that eq level basicly tells the headunit to try and produce more power then it actualy has to give in the bass region of sound. Since you are requesting more then what it has to give, it puts out crap, and speakers play what they get for a signal....in this instance, crap. Think of it like a sprinter running as fast as they can, if they are pushed to run faster, they are only going to trip and fall.

Bumping the EQs (really just a bass adjustment) on a head unit will always cause things to distort earlier then they would otherwise, including a sub. If you need more bass, the reality is that your system does not have it to give. Amplifying your speakers will help as a decent amp can cut out the very low sounds that the speakers can not play and can give the speakers the power they need to reach the volume level your asking for. However the speakers can only move so much air, and that amount of air is not enough to match even the lowest powered of 10" subwoofers. So they will not produce enough sound int he sub bass range no matter what you do to them. Putting htem in a box will only make them produce less bass.

As for a sub, you still should not raise the bass level. It just adds distortion. Raising the bass can not give you any more power to the sub or volume from the system, only less. The reason is that and amplifier can only put out so much power. The power drives the sub to a certain volume. That power can be achieved by properly setting the gain of the amplifier. Once the amp passes that point of producing its total power, its only going to do what the head unit did when you asked it to put out more power then it had to give and the amp will sound like crap.

The fact of the matter is that only more power can get you more volume. Also, if you have an amp that is already driving a sub to Xmax (as far as it can go inward and outward) then you can tripple the power of the amp and you are still not going to get that sub to play any louder as its limits will have been met.

Every component of an audio system has its limits, push them passed those limits and you are getting to get distortion, bad sound, burnt subs, and fried amplifiers. Not to mention alot of wasted money if you didn't buy products with good warrenties.



1sty has Spoken(bow)

 

[gt3_dk]

Dude... ur t3h ub3r c/-\r audi0 g0dz0r5... (bow) lol...

Okay so that is good and your explanations would make anyone understand... you're very helpful!!! One last Q tho...will a 500W RMS amp lets say, and a 300W RMS sub deliver enough bass to compliment my system? I don't need to crack my license plate or make my ears bleed from bass but I want something that will fit in evenly or even better, an amp of this pwer rating I can adjust the sound off of. Is 500W enough for this anybody? I don't have any friends with properly matched subs (I think the worst guy has two 12" Visoniks (I think 1200W peak) on the cheapest pioneer amp that outputs like 75Wx2... (hand) )

And also, the in-store demos don't really help me much. The guys don't seem to want to crank the volume up too loud and also the speakers aren't the same or even similar to mine and its all set up on walls so I can't relly make a comparison.

If those random numbers I just suggested are too high/too low, would someone please care to hook me up with some good numbers for both? Like I said, I don't need to explode the planet with bass and also I don't want something that will drown out the treble. It would be even better if someone could actually suggest to me actual peices. It would be really, really appreciated....

Thanks!!!

 

[1sty]

True 500 watts rms is a butt load of power. The problem is not every amp manufacturer is telling the truth when they specify there power output. For example a JL 500/1 (500 watts rms) is easily twice as powerful as an audiobahn or power acoustic 500 watt rms amp. THe reason for this is that different amp mankers rate the equiptment differently. Some rate for the worst real world conditions and some rate at the best.

Typicly I find that 350-500 rms is more then enough for most people when power some nice 10's or 12's. Keep in mind though that adding a subwoofer will not remove the bass from the door speakers. HOwever you will have a bajesus more bass in the car so you can keep the bass and eq settings flat to aviod early distortion.

A more important question is probably how much room are you willing to loose in the trunk? A dual 12" sub box isn't exactly small.

As a package an Alpine MRP-M350 amplifier (350 wattt rms as CEA 2006 rated) and a JL 12W3v2D4 is a killer combo. Plus its usualy under $500 or at very least under $550. This doesn't include wires of coarse.

You'll want to have subs that are near the power rating of the amplifier. Stay away from the horse s*** brands though that are more about flashly looks then sound. Visonik, audiobahn, sony, ect.

 

[gt3_dk]

Hmmm.. thanks dude that setup is looking great!!!!

I saw this on the amp's spec page though... what does "Continuously Adjustable Gain Control" mean?

Very nice prices too...I'm thinking of getting just one 12inch with dual 4ohm voive coil and connecting the DVC in parallel to get 2 ohms. I'm guessing that would be phat enough for all the bass I want!!! I don't really care about trunk space actually and neither have I thought about it much lol... I'll still be living at home the next few years so if ever I need to buy somethin big that won't fint in my trun anymore I'll borrow one of their cars I guess.

One thing I've always been wondering though. If I connect two 12 inchers in a way it euals 2ohms total, would they get 350W RMS each wired in series or in parallel. I remember last years grade 10 physical science crap lol... but we never talked about it with power. (I know voltage is same in P, but split in S. Current is the same in S but split in P. But I don't know what happens to power. My guess is that it splits no matter what right? Since power is voltage*current...?)

Well thanks a lot for the help. I don't think any stores around here sell Alpine or JL... or maybe I just have to look harder. Do you know of any places in canada off the top of your head where I can get these? BTW, is sony that crappy? I was actually looking into those lol.

 

[1sty]

First things first
SONY IS THAT BAD. There product is pure crap. No better then Jensen or Dual. ABout 5 years ago, Sony realized they could sell alot more product by making them cheaper by all means neccissary and by putting as many dancing lights on them as they could get. Not to mention they fallowed Pioneers model of putting redicoulsy high power rating on there products that they had no chance of producingor handling. They were however very correct that the majority of car audio buyers were more concerned about the looks and cost of audio equiptment, then about the actual sound.

"Continuously Adjustable Gain Control"
Its a way of overstating the common. It just means it has an adjustable gain. Kind of like calling a janitor a custodial engineer.

If you are not concerned with space then with the same amp you could power two 12" alpine type S subs or 2 JL audio W1's. Each has a single 4 ohm coil version.

You are very correct about amperage and voltage. In a series circuit, the amperage is common across each resistor and voltage is split. In a parallel circuit its the other way around. Now the part you are missing is that Power (watts) equals amperage times voltage. P=(V)(A). So in any circuit power is split evanly across 2 resistors is they are the same resistance. This is why you never want to mix and match subs, they are not the same resistance. One could be 3.3 ohms and the other 3.7 so they get different amounts of power. Plus as a speaker plays its reistance changes. So each sub would be a totaly different resistance when playing any given sound.

Both JL audio and Alpine have a dealer search on their websites. I would start your search there.

Glad to help.

 

[Satiagraha]

First things first
SONY IS THAT BAD. There product is pure crap. No better then Jensen or Dual. ABout 5 years ago, Sony realized they could sell alot more product by making them cheaper by all means neccissary and by putting as many dancing lights on them as they could get. Not to mention they fallowed Pioneers model of putting redicoulsy high power rating on there products that they had no chance of producingor handling. They were however very correct that the majority of car audio buyers were more concerned about the looks and cost of audio equiptment, then about the actual sound.

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

I cannot count the number of times I've seen people buy Sony Xplode speakers "because they were cheap, and besides, they look ok". The saddest part is that even after owning and listening to them for a while they still don't realize how crappy they are.

 

[rjmhotrod]

"Continuously Adjustable Gain Control"
Its a way of overstating the common. It just means it has an adjustable gain. Kind of like calling a janitor a custodial engineer.

I'm not correcting... just clarifying. The best way to understand what "continuously adjustable" means is to show what it is not. Almost all headunits have volume controls that move the volume up and down in steps (many times in 3db). Ever been driving along trying to listen to something and it's too soft so you turn it up one click and then it's too loud. That's because there's no in between point. That is NOT continuously adjustable. Now think of old school radios that had real volume knobs that had that smooth action when you turned them. The volume could be selected ANYWHERE in between totally quiet and totally loud. That is continuously variable.

So anything that is continuously adjustable can select the entire range of whatever value or unit it is measuring or manipulating (ie - volume, frequencies for HPF or LPF, etc).

Hope this helps.

1sty, you're still the man.

 

[gt3_dk]

Thank you so much guys!!! LOL... and the style and price was the reason I wan gonna buy the sony stuff anyays (smash)

Cool... that dealer locator thing just made me get a huge grin... lol. There's a small electronics shop in my city and it has some alpine stuff. (Dam those s-types are sexy ) The cool thing is that I was gonna apply to work ther tomorrow.... I'm tired of my s*** job. It makes me fricken crazy that boring ass repetitive checking of s*** doors in a boring ass factory. I guess that's what I get for being only 16 I'll keep you guys posted on what I'm gonna do.

And, should I build my own box according to specs or get one built? I want a ported one. (I think...lol) I heard it gets lower frequencies and requires less power to be loud.

Hehe... when I hook myself up in a few weeks or so my mom is gonna loooove this (rockon) (attn) (mj) (dance) (headbang) (nana) haha j/k

EDIT: .. that amp seems great but it's a huge dent in my wallet... ... Anything cheaper and equivalent you would recommend? I really don't wanna be stuck with a peice of junk, but if this is what I'd need for decent sound then I got no choice...

 

[gt3_dk]

WOOOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo man!!! I found the best place on the planet for my cxar audio LOL... 'm am going there as soon as I can!!! OKay... so I been looking and calling around for those type S or Type Rs and the MRP-350... Then there's this place I called to know the price and the guy was like "What do YOU want to pay for it?" Most places I called wre around 340-360 an one place had it on sale 300 so I was like 300. He said there was no problem at all. I was surprised and he said that he pays less money for it and that when I go in store he's gonna droop it more for me (my guess is 275-280)!! OMG I'm so happy I love him. It's not a ripoff though I'm almost 100% sure cuz it's a pretty big place called "Stereo Plus", it's old and pretty popular.

 

[1sty]

Damn, whats the exchange rate with the US these days?
The amp is only $199 USD

 

[gt3_dk]

Dam... now the place doesn't seem so good anymore (confused)

Accordin to today's exchange rate the amp should be $245.61 ...
Is 199 the price the store pays or the price it retails for?

 

[bonesmp5]

very good info 1sty ---

this should almost be a sticky --- lots a good questions answered

 

[1sty]

Dam... now the place doesn't seem so good anymore (confused)

Accordin to today's exchange rate the amp should be $245.61 ...
Is 199 the price the store pays or the price it retails for?

THe amplifier is sold for $199 at any store, we buy it for less obviously. Hell, Best Buy sells it for $199 and gives you a $20 mail in rebate on it down here.
Also, alpine has a package deal going on a type S 12" sub (SWS-1242D)and a MRP-M350 amp. Its only $349 USD

Its listed on there website.

 

[Hughes412]

Just a few thoughts.

"Continuously Adjustable Gain Control"
Its a way of overstating the common. It just means it has an adjustable gain. Kind of like calling a janitor a custodial engineer.

That is some funny s***!

THe amplifier is sold for $199 at any store, we buy it for less obviously. Hell, Best Buy sells it for $199 and gives you a $20 mail in rebate on it down here.
Also, alpine has a package deal going on a type S 12" sub (SWS-1242D)and a MRP-M350 amp. Its only $349 USD

Its listed on there website.


Glad to help.

Why don't you buy it on line and pay someone to install it? It sounds like you could come out cheeper even with the shipping. Even if you do end up paying a little more I'd rather pay it because of shipping cost then because I got screwed.

 

[gt3_dk]

Just a few thoughts.

Why don't you buy it on line and pay someone to install it? It sounds like you could come out cheeper even with the shipping. Even if you do end up paying a little more I'd rather pay it because of shipping cost then because I got screwed.

LOL.. paying shiiping costs instead of the cost of getting screwed (yes) But I actually think I rather get ripped off... That's just incase I need to return the stuff. Shipping to Canada won't be cheap at all, and sending a defective product back to them won't be either!

Well that's a good idea it seems like I can get a killer deal online, but there's no way I'm gonna let someone else install this!!! That's the second funnest part of buying it~! lol.

BTW: I'm sure I saw that amp/sub combo on their site but now that I'm loking for it I can't find it anymore?! http://www.alpine-usa.com/ is the site you're refering too right? If I do find it though I'll edit this part. Just link me to it if I cant please... lol.

 

[1sty]

www.alpine1.com, but I think it goes to the same site.
Just wait for the flash banners to come up and say HAMR. Then click on them.

I think they are screwing with the amp price a little. The Rockford Fosgate P3001 is $259.99 USD down here at Best Buy and $349.99 at Best Buy in Canada.
From my math, that means the Alpine should only be about $280 up there. Although Canada may have function import costs for Japanese companies like Alpine instead of American ones like RF. Not sure if the RF amps are still made in the US though.

 

[gt3_dk]

www.alpine1.com, but I think it goes to the same site.
Just wait for the flash banners to come up and say HAMR. Then click on them.

I think they are screwing with the amp price a little. The Rockford Fosgate P3001 is $259.99 USD down here at Best Buy and $349.99 at Best Buy in Canada.
From my math, that means the Alpine should only be about $280 up there. Although Canada may have function import costs for Japanese companies like Alpine instead of American ones like RF. Not sure if the RF amps are still made in the US though.

OOHH! LOL... so that's where I saw it!!! (yupnope) ... but look at this:
"-The Alpine Get Hamr'd power packages are available in the U.S. only-"

Dammit... that sucks. Ya that's what I figured the guy might lower it to when I actually went at the store (from 300 to like 275-280...). Man I hate those stupid deals that are only valid in the US and also to stupid online stores that only ship to the US.