What EMS systems are there?

[TheBryGuy]

Exactly as the title reads. What systems are out there and what are the pro's and con's of each? The only one I've really heard much about is the AEM system.

 

[peepsalot]

This thread is for MSP, but some of the info might be relevant for NA.
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89457

 

[TheBryGuy]

Thanks...that answers a lot of questions.

 

[Bigg Tim]

The MPI works well on a N/A setup and is $585 I believe. There isn't a steep learning curve, but you do have to be able to learn. N/A is much easier to tune then boost. But the others are out there too, but I don't think any other one is on a N/A except the microtech.

 

[TurfBurn]

We also offer the Microtech. Full Standalone EMS with integrated MAP sensor and use of all stock sensors and more flexibility than any thing else offered... and we sell it at just under a grand for the base system. Lots of options... but our most expensive system right now is only as expensive as the next bit of competition at 1500.

 

[TurfBurn]

If you want something super simple and pretty easy the DSM AFC and the MPI are both good options... but if you want more flexibility and a lot of power as far as options for the vehicle and how it runs etc... then the Microtech is a great choice for you.

 

[MPNick]

If you want something super simple and pretty easy the DSM AFC and the MPI are both good options... but if you want more flexibility and a lot of power as far as options for the vehicle and how it runs etc... then the Microtech is a great choice for you.

My problem with the DSM AFC is that you have no control over your timing. May not sound like a big deal but it is. As you change your map voltage you also change your timing.

 

[Blue_Speed]

i dont know if they make a split second afc for N/A cars because you tune it by psi and rpms. Not sure how that will work with N/A.

 

[TurfBurn]

My problem with the DSM AFC is that you have no control over your timing. May not sound like a big deal but it is. As you change your map voltage you also change your timing.

True, but doesn't the MPI fall victim to that somewhat too? You have the ability to adjust around that obviously... but tweaking the MAF will cause a shift won't it? I'm assuming the turbo module has to play with it at least a little bit... and if you scale the MAF to eliminate fuel cut you'd face the same issue? But again, you have the ability to do something about it either way which is good...

 

[03.5MSP]

My whp goal is around 325 with my msp, and i will be relying on the mpi and extra injectors to get me there. I will be using a map sensor when in boost, and the maf when at idle and vacuum. The mpi will be easire to tune than an ems, but ems will give you more flexibility. just my .02

 

[glyph]

I am running a Haltech E6X from Juan (HiBoost TS) on my Street Sleeper turbo kit from Mental Addiction Motorsports (Beau). If I had known Turf was selling the Microtech for that cheap when I was looking, I would have strongly considered it. I paid ~$1500 from HiBoost, and the Microtech I saw everywhere selling for $2000+. The MPI had a lot of controversy surrounding it, and I didn't want to take the time to dig through what was BS, and what was fact, and I wanted something more full-featured. I did see a feature on the MPI in an issue of SportsCar magazine (SCCA's montly mag).

The Haltech also has a steep learning curve for people like me who had done nothing of the sort before. I am still learning out the whole tuning thing works almost a year later.

 

[Bigg Tim]

My whp goal is around 325 with my msp, and i will be relying on the mpi and extra injectors to get me there. I will be using a map sensor when in boost, and the maf when at idle and vacuum. The mpi will be easire to tune than an ems, but ems will give you more flexibility. just my .02

The MPI will give you all you need for those numbers. The MAP sensor IMO is not the way to go. I recently tried it to turn on the switch and help with the xtra injector control and it did not work for me as well as the original way. I had a 3 bar MAP sensor and we think the resolution of the map was not fine enough. It just didn't do it for me, but good luck with it on your setup.(thumb)

 

[MPNick]

My whp goal is around 325 with my msp, and i will be relying on the mpi and extra injectors to get me there. I will be using a map sensor when in boost, and the maf when at idle and vacuum. The mpi will be easire to tune than an ems, but ems will give you more flexibility. just my .02

To date the MPI has made the most whp and by far the most lowend torque. This is a big deal for an everyday street car. It seems the big injectors car not only have problems with running clean at idle, cold starts and low speed drivablity. They also do not make the lowend torque as the MPI with extra injectors. This is pound for pound of boost. Also we are street legel. You can pass any state testing that you have when tuned right.

 

[MPNick]

The MPI had a lot of controversy surrounding it, and I didn't want to take the time to dig through what was BS, and what was fact, and I wanted something more full-featured. I did see a feature on the MPI in an issue of SportsCar magazine (SCCA's montly mag).

.

You have those few people who BS about the MPI for one reason or another, this is true. But the fact is that when people do things right with the MPI it runs as stated and works 100% great. Think about the people with the standalones who say they have never had cold start problems. Then I talk to a few people who know better. Look at your setup, you did not BS about the cold start problems you are having. You posted the facts. The guy in NY who could not start his car under 40 degrees. Then he had to remove the system to pass inspection. He has yet to reinstall it because his fuel milage is back something like 5 mpg.

Standalone systems are better used for all out races cars.

 

[TurfBurn]

It seems the big injectors car not only have problems with running clean at idle, cold starts and low speed drivablity. They also do not make the lowend torque as the MPI with extra injectors.

Sorry Nick, but that first sentence is complete and utter bull. We've proved otherwise multiple times now. The car starts and idles and yields good throttle response from a dead cold start in sub freezing temperatures and does not stall or bog when driving it. Plain and simple.

As far as the second sentence I have not compared graphs but at my 12.5 psi I yielded 268 ft-lbs of torque by 4,200 rpm's and started at 3,000 rpm's with over 150 ft-lbs before the turbo even spooled at all...

 

[TurfBurn]

You have those few people who BS about the MPI for one reason or another, this is true. But the fact is that when people do things right with the MPI it runs as stated and works 100% great. Think about the people with the standalones who say they have never had cold start problems. Then I talk to a few people who know better. Look at your setup, you did not BS about the cold start problems you are having. You posted the facts. The guy in NY who could not start his car under 40 degrees. Then he had to remove the system to pass inspection. He has yet to reinstall it because his fuel milage is back something like 5 mpg.

Standalone systems are better used for all out races cars.

You are talking 1) About Haltech guys for the most part, and 2) about people that just started tuning and/or didn't build their maps up. Talk to Dave (pro 5), John/Keola (Dumb Keola), or see my car. They all start flawlessly in cold weather and cold starts (obviously Hawaii doesn't get exactly cold... but cold motor nonetheless). I've proven my car to be easily daily driveable down to 13F before I put it into storage for work on it this winter. And I'm even using the older Microtech that ran the semi-sequential/batch fires... with the new 4 channel units the starts would be better yet you'd assume even though they are already nearly flawless.

Just because some people have problems when they don't tune it or don't actually ask questions or follow the instructions given to them doesn't mean there is a problem with the system YOU shoud know that better than anyone.

Also... my guys have seen their gas mileage go UP with the system when tuned in.

 

[Bigg Tim]

You are talking 1) About Haltech guys for the most part, and 2) about people that just started tuning and/or didn't build their maps up. Talk to Dave (pro 5), John/Keola (Dumb Keola), or see my car. They all start flawlessly in cold weather and cold starts (obviously Hawaii doesn't get exactly cold... but cold motor nonetheless). I've proven my car to be easily daily driveable down to 13F before I put it into storage for work on it this winter. And I'm even using the older Microtech that ran the semi-sequential/batch fires... with the new 4 channel units the starts would be better yet you'd assume even though they are already nearly flawless.

Just because some people have problems when they don't tune it or don't actually ask questions or follow the instructions given to them doesn't mean there is a problem with the system YOU shoud know that better than anyone.

Also... my guys have seen their gas mileage go UP with the system when tuned in.

I can agree about the Haltechs being the mis-represented ones, but I also think they are crap and that the problems with them are not all posted up. Dunno about the microtech. But you have to agree that having to take out an EMS to pass an inspection is BS. Since they have been out for quite sometime, you would think that there would be more "fine tuned" maps out there. Also the fact that they do not actually retard timing is crap too. You have to advance the timing and use the SW to retard it. That's crap for the price IMO.

I'm sure your car runs good and I'm sure the Hawaii guys are running good. But dollar for dollar, the MPI is a better choice IMO, but I admit I am biased.(thumb) I needed to be able to pass emissions and what better way then with a piggyback.

 

[TurfBurn]

I can agree about the Haltechs being the mis-represented ones, but I also think they are crap and that the problems with them are not all posted up. Dunno about the microtech. But you have to agree that having to take out an EMS to pass an inspection is BS. Since they have been out for quite sometime, you would think that there would be more "fine tuned" maps out there. Also the fact that they do not actually retard timing is crap too. You have to advance the timing and use the SW to retard it. That's crap for the price IMO.

I'm sure your car runs good and I'm sure the Hawaii guys are running good. But dollar for dollar, the MPI is a better choice IMO, but I admit I am biased.(thumb) I needed to be able to pass emissions and what better way then with a piggyback.

I did not know about the timing thing with them... wow... that's insane.

I do think the MPI dollar for dollar is an incredible buy and why I continue to recommend it for a lot of people... And certainly is the best way to pass emissions. Hopefully we'll get that solved on our side soon, but we'll see. My resources are just a bit more limited than they should be ideally for making more progress. The flexibility and precision and independence of control are the big selling points for a standalone and why I promote them.

 

[Bigg Tim]

I did not know about the timing thing with them... wow... that's insane.

I do think the MPI dollar for dollar is an incredible buy and why I continue to recommend it for a lot of people... And certainly is the best way to pass emissions. Hopefully we'll get that solved on our side soon, but we'll see. My resources are just a bit more limited than they should be ideally for making more progress. The flexibility and precision and independence of control are the big selling points for a standalone and why I promote them.

The timing isn't the ony thing. I just wish people were more honest about them like they are about the MPI's and, so far, are being about the microtech.

 

[TurfBurn]

As I see it, we have to be honest about the system. First, it's simply how I do business... and second, I'll end up with seriously pissed off customers if they get the system and it doesn't something that I'm not forward about from the start! I am finding it harder than expected to get customers to listen to what I tell them to do with the system to correct problems... you would think they'd listen when you are trying to help... but not so much!!