transmission removal, driveshaft, and other questions

[71dsp]

Pardon my Protege newbie-ness, as my expertise lies with Hondas and Miatas. So far our P5 has been flawless (I've only had to do routine maintenance), but this weekend, I'm pulling the transmission to solve the clutch shutter problem and an annoying "growl" that occurs on acceleration.

First, the driver's side driveshaft is about 1/2 way pressed out of the hub, but it won't budge any further. I used a fairly weak impact (200 ft*lbs) with a gear puller with no success. Since the upright really doesn't have any good flat surfaces on it, I'm going to have to make some type of jig to get it into the press to try to press the driveshaft out. I'm hoping that the driveshaft or hub doesn't get damged in the process as I can't find anyone that carries reman'ed driveshafts. I've had very good success with Autozone remans on the track car, but unfortunately, they don't make anything for the P5. Factory units are very pricey, so I'm trying to avoid that if possible. Does anyone know any sources for driveshafts other than Mazda?

Also, on the rear mount, I have a bolt that's about 1/2 way out, and it's also frozen. I'm letting it soak in some penetrating oil overnight, and hopefully I can get it out in the morning. That's the only thing holding me back from dropping the tranny now. If anyone has some suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I'm hoping I just have to chase the threads and nothing more.

One last thing, I've seen the threads on the engine mounts, and of course, my front mount is torn up pretty good. I haven't had a chance to inspect the rear because I'm not able to get the bracket out of the way. This is a daily driver, stock car, that doesn't get driven hard, so I'm not terribly interested in urethane inserts or poly replacement engine mounts made for a highly modified car (i.e. stiff) unless they're are some that are quite soft, as I'll get an earful if the car gives you a massage at a stop light. Are there any mounts out there that are more reliable than the stock mounts without greatly increasing NVH?

Also, anything that I should think about upgrading/changing while I have everything torn apart? I'm going to go ahead and replace the struts with something like a Tokico, as one strut is leaking. I'm planning to just use a MSP clutch and pressure plate, as the car won't be driven hard. I almost had my eye on an AWR header, but the Prelude needs parts, so I had to put that idea aside. Any other suggestions and or advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[kcbhiw]

Pardon my Protege newbie-ness, as my expertise lies with Hondas and Miatas. So far our P5 has been flawless (I've only had to do routine maintenance), but this weekend, I'm pulling the transmission to solve the clutch shutter problem and an annoying "growl" that occurs on acceleration.

Welcome to the forum! That's a very nice looking 'lude in your sig.

First, the driver's side driveshaft is about 1/2 way pressed out of the hub, but it won't budge any further. I used a fairly weak impact (200 ft*lbs) with a gear puller with no success. Since the upright really doesn't have any good flat surfaces on it, I'm going to have to make some type of jig to get it into the press to try to press the driveshaft out. I'm hoping that the driveshaft or hub doesn't get damged in the process as I can't find anyone that carries reman'ed driveshafts. I've had very good success with Autozone remans on the track car, but unfortunately, they don't make anything for the P5. Factory units are very pricey, so I'm trying to avoid that if possible. Does anyone know any sources for driveshafts other than Mazda?

Assuming you have both bolts removed in the upper knuckle, try running the axle nut back in, then out again a few times. I've had limited success on other cars using this tecnique.

Additionally, install the axle nut backwards a few turns so that its outer surface is just a bit further out than the end of the axle. Give it a few raps with a heavy hammer and it should force it out of the bearing. Using this technique has also worked on the racers that I service with no noticable negative effects. However, I suggest having a replacement nut on hand as the original will become "mushroomed".

If the need arises, uUsed axles can be found through www.mazmart.com or www.mazdarecycling.com for very reasonable prices. In regard to reman'd units, have a look at axles for the 2000 MY 1.8L Proteges whitch a matching tranny type (AT vs MT) as they use a nearly identical driveline (bascially a de-stroked 2.0L). It's worth a shot.

Also, on the rear mount, I have a bolt that's about 1/2 way out, and it's also frozen. I'm letting it soak in some penetrating oil overnight, and hopefully I can get it out in the morning. That's the only thing holding me back from dropping the tranny now. If anyone has some suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I'm hoping I just have to chase the threads and nothing more.

Assuming that you are referring to the bolt that affixes the mount to the chassis, again, run the nut "in and out" to try to knock off some of the rust/grime that has accumulated over time. However, if it's a bolt that attaches the mount to the tranny, be very careful as you could strip the 'boss' in the aluminum tranny housing which would then require re-tapping to a larger bolt size for reassembly.

One last thing, I've seen the threads on the engine mounts, and of course, my front mount is torn up pretty good. I haven't had a chance to inspect the rear because I'm not able to get the bracket out of the way. This is a daily driver, stock car, that doesn't get driven hard, so I'm not terribly interested in urethane inserts or poly replacement engine mounts made for a highly modified car (i.e. stiff) unless they're are some that are quite soft, as I'll get an earful if the car gives you a massage at a stop light. Are there any mounts out there that are more reliable than the stock mounts without greatly increasing NVH?

I am unaware of any non-urethane/non-OE mounts that will be nearly as soft, but with increased durability, as the stockers. The rear mount is a real PITA to remove and replace, but the front seems to receive the most wear. I'd say just go with the stock rubber mount, FWIW.

Gotta please the misses, eh? (thumb)

Also, anything that I should think about upgrading/changing while I have everything torn apart? I'm going to go ahead and replace the struts with something like a Tokico, as one strut is leaking. I'm planning to just use a MSP clutch and pressure plate, as the car won't be driven hard.

Beware that the MSP PP has a must stronger spring rate than the stock P5 PP. It'll tire you a bit faster in traffic. Additionally, it's really not necessary for a stock P5. I haven't researched the replacement strut selections too terribly much, but the Tokico is a good selection.

I almost had my eye on an AWR header, but the Prelude needs parts, so I had to put that idea aside. Any other suggestions and or advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

It's always much more fun to dump money into the racer than the DD, isn't it. (glare)


Again, welcome to the forum!!

 

[viVid]

Have you checked out this how-to?

http://www.msprotege.com/vbb300/showthread.php?t=67599

It might address some of your questions about the drivetrain. As far as motor mounts, you can fill them with various compounds yourself (see the how-to secton as well) or you can buy motor mount inserts from rr-racing.com.

RE: Clutch, I would go with a Spec or ACT clutch myself. Apparently, the Mazda clutches aren't known for their longevity...

 

[xelderx]

I usually don't pull the halfshafts out of the hub when I pull the motor/trans. I just undo the bottom control arm from the knuckle or you can just unbolt the control arm from the subframe/unibody. That should give you enough play on both sides to just pull the halfshafts out of the tranny housing. Then just leave them hanging until you are ready to bolt everything back up.

 

[kcbhiw]

I just did a quick search on Advance's website and it seems they have replacement axles for the 2001 ES and MP3 which would be direct replacements for the 2002+ Protege5. So, those should work for you if it came to that.

 

[71dsp]

Thanks for the welcomes guys! I really appreciate it.

kcbhiw,
I've tried the in and out method, and I'll probably keep doing it until I get the bolt and driveshaft out. I'm fairly skittish about beating on the driveshaft. I've already tried that with a block of wood with no success, but I've also ruined my fair share of threads on various bolts by doing that procedure. I also have the upright out of the car already, so it's going to be a bit more interesting tomorrow! As for the engine mount bolt, it is the one going into the tranny casing, hence my apprehension at just forcing the bolt out. At a minimum I'll chase the threads, hopefully I won't have to helicoil the damn thing.

As for the engine mounts, I'm thinking stock is about my only choice. I know that when I put inserts in the Prelude back when I was actually driving it on the street, the dash would do a little dance at a stop light! The missus won't stand for that in the P5. Hence the short shifter being shot down as well.

The PP really isn't too big of a deal. The MSP clutch and PP ended up being cheaper than the stock P5 bits, so that's why I did it. I'm sure I'll hear about the PP being stiffer later, but I can't change it back at that point!

Oh yes, the bottomless pit that is a track car. Actually I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I almost have the bugs worked out, just a few more things to fab and/or buy. The engine is doing well; 205 WHP / 160 WTQ back when it had 5 miles on it. I'm planning to go back and retune since the engine is now broken in. Not too bad on a stock internal 2.2 liter Prelude engine.

I like your Miata. I had grand plans for our 99, it actually had a HDHCDD, Momo T Frame seats, MS short shifter, etc. until the wife "reclaimed" her car (it was hers before we got married), so I had to go back to the drawing board with the Prelude!

viVid
I'm not much of an ACT fan, but I do like Spec. Currently the Prelude uses a Competition Clutch 6 puck sprung cerametallic clutch. It's one of the best I've used so far. A friend has a 6 puck solid Spec in his Civic. To be honest, I just didn't want to spend the money. The MSP PP, clutch disk, release bearing, and pilot bearing were well under $200, almost $100 cheaper than a Competition Clutch for the P5.

I'll check out your links. Thanks!

xelderx
I normally don't pull out the driveshafts either when I do a transmission job, but since I'm replacing the wheel bearings because of this annoying "growl" on acceleration, I had to remove the uprights anyway.

 

[kcbhiw]

As for the engine mounts, I'm thinking stock is about my only choice. I know that when I put inserts in the Prelude back when I was actually driving it on the street, the dash would do a little dance at a stop light! The missus won't stand for that in the P5. Hence the short shifter being shot down as well.

At least she tolerates the racing and the assocated budget,eh? At least that's what I'm assuming . If that's the truth, then you've got a keeper, hehe.

 

[viVid]

At least she tolerates the racing and the assocated budget,eh?

It's probably HER car

 

[viVid]

To be honest, I just didn't want to spend the money.

That is a valid reason! (drinks)

 

[71dsp]

Tolerates is a fair description. Between the car and the garage, I drive her fairly crazy, though. She's a keeper for sure. For Christmas, a new TIG welder was delivered! (yes)

The P5 was her car until this "growling" and shuttering problem became more than she wanted to deal with. I've been driving it to/from work lately, although now I'm going to have to drive the Paseo (yes, you read right) to/from work for the next week until I get the P5 put back together.

kcbhiw what do you have done to the Miatas (Miatae?) and the P5?

 

[71dsp]

That is a valid reason! (drinks)

(drinks) If I told you the specs on the track car, you'd see where the car budget goes! (2thumbs)

 

[viVid]

(drinks) If I told you the specs on the track car, you'd see where the car budget goes! (2thumbs)

No doubt, the pics alone speak of many greenback's Any idea what the stock MSP clutch can hold? I've been searching, but havn't found it yet...

 

[kcbhiw]

Tolerates is a fair description. Between the car and the garage, I drive her fairly crazy, though. She's a keeper for sure. For Christmas, a new TIG welder was delivered! (yes)

Awsome! I need to find one like that .

The P5 was her car until this "growling" and shuttering problem became more than she wanted to deal with. I've been driving it to/from work lately, although now I'm going to have to drive the Paseo (yes, you read right) to/from work for the next week until I get the P5 put back together.

kcbhiw what do you have done to the Miatas (Miatae?) and the P5?

The protege only has a set of shifter bushings and Gold Line springs. I'm keeping it mostly stock as I want to maintain reliability for the daily driver.

The white Miata will be receiving a '99 1.8L as soon as I get around to building it. Aside from that, it has crappy Eibach springs, Racing Beat 7/8" front sway, Flyin' Miata rear sway (I forget the size), KYB AGX struts, and a few other bits that escape my mind at the moment. I'm slowly building it into what I hope to be a nationally competitive CSP car as the funds permit. This year, in addtion to the 1.8L, she'll receive a set of GC Adj coilovers with roughly 500/350 rates, lose the rear bar, and a set of Koni Yellows.

The black/gray miata was built for the $2006 Grassroots motorsports challenge implementing a homebrew turbocharger setup putting out about 210 RWHP. Spring rates are 450f/350r with KYB AGX struts, audi (forget what model) intercooler, Izuzu Pup Radiator, 1.8L Miata injectors, some breed of RR fuel pressure regulator, and a bunch of other things I slapped together. The entire build cost me a hair over $1970 including the car. I'm currently working on version 2 for the $2006 challenge that will include parts to increase the efficiency of the turbo system and handling including a volvo intercooler, carbon fiber turbo piping, LSD, etc. As soon as things get under way, I'll be posting a "series" in the Miata section on this board.


Where are you located?

 

[71dsp]

Eek, I have no real idea. From my research, the clutch disk appears to be the same as the P5 disk, just the pressure plate is stiffer. Both the disk and pressure plate have different part numbers than the P5 bits, so I ordered the MSP parts. I'll take side by side pictures when the parts get here next week. I really wanted to do a light weight flywheel, but they're friggin expensive for a P5! The Competition Clutch chromoly flywheel in the Prelude only ran $170! An aluminum piece for the P5 is $300 to $400!

 

[viVid]

The Competition Clutch chromoly flywheel in the Prelude only ran $170! An aluminum piece for the P5 is $300 to $400!

How do you think you get such good prices on your Honda parts? It's subsidized by the Mazda community! HaHa!

I was just wondering... I am considering a Hi-Boost kit later this year and am still on the fence as to what clutch I am going to put in. Stock P5 clutch is not one of them...

 

[71dsp]

The protege only has a set of shifter bushings and Gold Line springs. I'm keeping it mostly stock as I want to maintain reliability for the daily driver.

I completely understand that!

The white Miata will be receiving a '99 1.8L as soon as I get around to building it. Aside from that, it has crappy Eibach springs, Racing Beat 7/8" front sway, Flyin' Miata rear sway (I forget the size), KYB AGX struts, and a few other bits that escape my mind at the moment. I'm slowly building it into what I hope to be a nationally competitive CSP car as the funds permit. This year, in addtion to the 1.8L, she'll receive a set of GC Adj coilovers with roughly 500/350 rates, lose the rear bar, and a set of Koni Yellows.

Very nice engine swap, and a very nice car. (thumb) I love my Konis. I actually went with Koni 3011s, as doing a set of double adjustable yellows turned out to be less cost effective. If you ever need your Konis serviced or revalved, contact Lee Grimes at Koni-NA. Great guy to work with, and the customer service there is second to none.

I'm not a real big fan of Eibach springs. I think they do make a great product, but I've had better luck with Hypercoil or H&R. I used to run Hypercoils on the Prelude, but they don't make high enough rates for the rear, and custom rates are mega expensive, so I'm trying H&Rs for the first time pretty soon. I need to machine some new couplers for the helper springs, and I should be in business with the H&R springs.

It's such a different world comparing Miatas to Hondas. I'm running 900 front and 1100 rear rates!!

The black/gray miata was built for the $2006 Grassroots motorsports challenge implementing a homebrew turbocharger setup putting out about 210 RWHP. Spring rates are 450f/350r with KYB AGX struts, audi (forget what model) intercooler, Izuzu Pup Radiator, 1.8L Miata injectors, some breed of RR fuel pressure regulator, and a bunch of other things I slapped together. The entire build cost me a hair over $1970 including the car. I'm currently working on version 2 for the $2006 challenge that will include parts to increase the efficiency of the turbo system and handling including a volvo intercooler, carbon fiber turbo piping, LSD, etc. As soon as things get under way, I'll be posting a "series" in the Miata section on this board.

Now that's impressive! I'd love to do something like that, but I'm so strapped for time. The next project I want to start is to make a locost 7. A lot of guys have built them with Miata donor parts. I'd like to try S2k donor parts.

Where are you located?

Right around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area in Texas.

Ok, back to this Hondata gasket install that's taking too damn long....by the way, if you want a Hondata gasket for the Miata, let me know. (thumb)

 

[71dsp]

How do you think you get such good prices on your Honda parts? It's subsidized by the Mazda community! HaHa!

I was just wondering... I am considering a Hi-Boost kit later this year and am still on the fence as to what clutch I am going to put in. Stock P5 clutch is not one of them...

I'd have to say a Competition Clutch Iron Man. I had one in the Prelude, but I had a nasty over-rev at TWS which buckled the spring straps in the pressure plate. That clutch was nasty (in a good way). Sintered Iron is nice because it actually grabs MORE as the material is heated. Very good if you have to slip the clutch. I had a 4 puck solid Iron Man clutch, which was overkill for the Prelude by a factor of 10, but I'm all about overkill. After I ruined the PP, I decided to go with a more mild (i.e. cheaper) 6 puck cerametallic sprung clutch from CC. I've been VERY happy with it. A friend of mine runs a CC Iron Man in his track Prelude with no problems. The nice thing about a solid hub clutch disk is that it's so light, however sintered iron is very heavy, so if you want a light clutch disk, cerametallic is a better choice.

Other than CC, I'd say a Spec. A friend has a Spec 6 puck solid in his Civic and has been very happy with it, and it's a daily driven car. Too much clutch for the engine, but he loves it anyway.

 

[kcbhiw]

I completely understand that!


Very nice engine swap, and a very nice car. (thumb) I love my Konis. I actually went with Koni 3011s, as doing a set of double adjustable yellows turned out to be less cost effective. If you ever need your Konis serviced or revalved, contact Lee Grimes at Koni-NA. Great guy to work with, and the customer service there is second to none.

Notes taken. Thanks!

I really want to lose the KYB's in that the amount of strut travel with springs is limited to about an inch. IOW, I'm riding on my bump stops...not good.

I'm not a real big fan of Eibach springs. I think they do make a great product, but I've had better luck with Hypercoil or H&R. I used to run Hypercoils on the Prelude, but they don't make high enough rates for the rear, and custom rates are mega expensive, so I'm trying H&Rs for the first time pretty soon. I need to machine some new couplers for the helper springs, and I should be in business with the H&R springs.

I completely agree regarding Eibach. With implementing the GC's, I can pick and choose my rates.

It's such a different world comparing Miatas to Hondas. I'm running 900 front and 1100 rear rates!!

Good lord, that's crazy. Trying to get a bit of rotation, eh?

Now that's impressive! I'd love to do something like that, but I'm so strapped for time. The next project I want to start is to make a locost 7. A lot of guys have built them with Miata donor parts. I'd like to try S2k donor parts.

It took me about 4 months to build the car during the weekdays after work (a lot of business travel included, unfortunately) and a few weekends. I can't wait to begin work again in that I think the car will end up 10 times better than it is now.

Right around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area in Texas.

Ok, back to this Hondata gasket install that's taking too damn long....by the way, if you want a Hondata gasket for the Miata, let me know. (thumb)

Awsome. If you're ever in the Atlanta area, or plan to drive Road Atlanta, drop me a line.

 

[71dsp]

Notes taken. Thanks!

I really want to lose the KYB's in that the amount of strut travel with springs is limited to about an inch. IOW, I'm riding on my bump stops...not good.

If you have the budget, I'd give the 3011s a serious look, as the dampers all custom built to your spec. Koni was VERY helpful when it came to the specs I needed my dampers built to. I had to send them back once to have the groove for the c-clip machined downward, as I couldn't get the car low enough because of the high spring rates (I'd guess the machined them where the OTS Koni Yellows would have them), and even though they were supremely busy, turn around was less than a week from the time they left my hands until I had them back.

Anyway, my point is that with a 3011, you may be able to spec a much shorter shock body that would give you a lot more travel over your current setup.

Main disadvantage is price, 3011s run about $400 each.

I completely agree regarding Eibach. With implementing the GC's, I can pick and choose my rates.

Yes, but they're Eibach springs, no? One other point, the 3011s are larger in OD than OTS Koni Yellows, so you have to use Koni's coilover bits. Not as nice as the GC stuff, but very stout and very light.

Good lord, that's crazy. Trying to get a bit of rotation, eh?

hehe, so would you think it's crazy that the car runs (or is going to run) a 1.25" x 0.188 wall 3 piece rear sway bar? I do know a guy that actually runs a 32mm SOLID rear sway bar on a Prelude, now that's nuts (and crazy heavy)!

It took me about 4 months to build the car during the weekdays after work (a lot of business travel included, unfortunately) and a few weekends. I can't wait to begin work again in that I think the car will end up 10 times better than it is now.

Very nice. Now that's a project to be proud of. I admire those $200x builds, especially the clown cars. Talk about crazy clean. Fortunately, that's how I built my current track car. The cage and some machine work was the only stuff not done by myself. I built the engine, fab'ed a bunch of the parts, and did all the building myself. I tell my wife that I actually saved us money since I didn't have to pay for labor! (rlaugh) You should see the looks I get when I say that.

Awsome. If you're ever in the Atlanta area, or plan to drive Road Atlanta, drop me a line.

Very cool. I'd love to drive that track! One of these days.... Closest I'll be to your neck of the woods (uh, kindof) will be the National Prelude Meet in June. I'll be at Gateway in St. Louis.

 

[71dsp]

UPDATE:
I just dropped the transmission out of the car. It actually comes out fairly painlessly. I was able to get the stubborn bolt out using kcbhiw method of tightening and loosening the bolt with an impact until it finally came out. As I thought, the last 3 threads on the bolt are fubar, but the damage is fairly minimal. I should be able to get away with chasing the threads on the transmission casing to fix the problem.

The clutch disk, pressure plate, and flywheel show no obvious signs of damage. However, I did note that the clutch disk only uses 4 rubber dampers, but there are six spots in the clutch disk for these dampers. The two missing are directly across from one another, and there is no damage to the clutch disk, so I'm assuming it's this way from the factory. The friction material looks fine, just glazed pretty badly. I'm going to take the flywheel to a machine shop to have it resurfaced to ensure a good friction surface.

The only thing that's bothering me now is that when I turned the input shaft of the transmission by hand, I noticed that it turns very, very easily. There's not as much resistance as I'd expect. Also from inside the transmission I heard a slight "thunk" as the input shaft was turned. More so in one direction than the other. I shifted it into some of the other gears, and the noise went away, so I'm debating on whether or not to open up the transmission. After reading some of the "how tos" on the differential install, I can see the transmission is very similar to a Honda tranny (although closer to a Toyota tranny), except a Honda transmission is much easier to get to the internals because everything is in one case. What's the deal with having two pieces to the casing and having to work so hard to get to the internals??!! I completely rebuilt my Prelude transmission with new bearings, new carbon coated synchros and an LSD, so I'm not too scared of the P5 tranny, but I don't have any special tools that the job may require.

Does anyone know of a good shop that does work on Mazda manual transmissions? Something similar to www.gear-speed.com, but for Mazdas?

I'm just going to kick myself if I put everything back together and that "growl" on acceleration is still there and it's coming from the tranny!