Time Mag POTY 1938-Hitler 2004-Bush

[glyph]

Geez, dude, I never said civilians haven't been killed by our troops. Don't forget, I am in the military, and military history is taught to us as part of our education as officers. I do know about events such as Dresden.

Loss of civilians is a reality of any conflict. I know civilians have died, I just question the number. First you said tens of thousands, then you said 15,000. I am asking for the source, that's all.

 

[glyph]

Here is what I just found. All numbers from this website, which appears to be a valid source:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Min: 14880 Max: 17076

Subtract the number below and you get:
min: 7530 max: 9726

Other numbers:
Coalition deaths: 1475

I am not diminishing in any way the loss of life of anyone involved in the conflict. I value life highly and am quite disturbed at just how many people are being killed. How can I not be disturbed at so many deaths?

The numbers need to be defined: here is a portion of the definition of the count, which interestingly is in the fine print in a second level link, and not presented right next to the big bold numbers on the main page:
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-2]This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003. In the current occupation phase the database includes all deaths which the Occupying Authority has a binding responsibility to prevent under the Geneva Conventions and Hague Regulations. This includes civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation.

Notice that it includes law and order, and inadequate health care and sanitation. That would be quite a large number. I wonder if it includes all the deaths cause by the insurgents (breakdown in law and order). Actually, yes, it does. If you look further into it, it even includes the Iraqi police officers, which I guess could technically be considered civilians.

That makes a huge difference, does it not?

I have been looking for sources of the number of insurgents killed, and that information is interestingly not available, not that I could find. Seems that would provide more of a complete picture. Also, there are press releases and such that are highly editorialized statements. Certainly not an objective site. It is more aimed at raising awareness of civilian deaths from an anti-war standpoint than an objective presentation of facts.

There is also nothing on this site about what American ROE is, nor LOAC, nor anything about how they prepare the populace for coming invasions. Very one-sided.
[/size][/font]

 

[seatbackfurther]

Any argument has a need for "basis in fact". What is the point of arguing anything if not to find out the truth? Facts lead to truth. You would rather have an opinion with a "basis in rumor"?

I was actually referring to that topic about sovereignty, it was an opinion based topic, and as such, had no need for "basis in fact." Like i said, If you said the president would do good deeds, you wouldn't need fact. It's an opinion.

 

[glyph]

ah, I see. Though my point still stands. Why have an opinion if it is not based in fact?
I don't see how you can say an opinion has no need to be based in truth.

 

[seatbackfurther]

All from the angle that he himself is after all this for personal gain. It seems no one here is willing to take Bush at his word that this war was for exactly what he stated.

That's the thing. Read as many articles that you can about everything that lead up to the war, and maybe you have to insight as to why everyone has an indifference. Think about how quickly the focus changed from Bin Laden to Sadam Hussein and Iraq. There are so many unknowns that people will never know and it's sad. I wish I had more knowledge of what went on in the middle east in the 80's. I think that would at least give some insight of the shape of things to come over those ~20 years. How did we go from selling arms to Iran (well Israel fronted them, and we replaced them) in mid 80's (84-88??) to help in their war against Iraq. Yes, I do know about the hostages, but I believe that be only a small portion. This is what is known as the cover; To selling Iraq toxic chemicals in that same period (http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_1_2.html#exports) Also weren't we trying to help them (Iraq) as well? It's confusing as hell (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,866942,00.html). Now what do you think? LIES? I mean think about it. There's more to all of this than any one of us could probably fathom, or it could be something very stupid. Either way, I don't think the war on Iraq was that "simple." I definitely don't believe that this is just war on terrorism. Here's an interesting thesis paper: http://www.pol.uiuc.edu/news/largio_thesis.pdf

It got alot of headlines awhile back. Good reading.. (birthday)

 

[orangezoom]

History is written by the winners.

Yes, I realize that Bush is not at the same level (or anywhere near) Stalin or Hitler. However, he's a headstrong tyrant - with a low IQ, and because he leaned left - he's the "fortunate son".

"it ain't me, it ain't me - I ain't no fortunate son"

Low IQ you might want to check that.

 

[xelderx]

Don't forget that America's "War on Terror" has actually increased the number of terrorist attacks in the world.

 

[seatbackfurther]

ah, I see. Though my point still stands. Why have an opinion if it is not based in fact?
I don't see how you can say an opinion has no need to be based in truth.

lol. That's the essense of opinion. It's like me saying there is a god, yet I have no fact to prove it, only more opinion and hearsay. You say there isn't a god, yet you have no fact to prove it. That's why it's an opinion. If it wasn't, then it would be a fact and not opinion... Anyway, now we're just getting into semantics.

 

[seatbackfurther]

Low IQ you might want to check that.

http://media.***********.com/georgewbushdrunk.wmv

Checked (second)

 

[xelderx]

where'd you read that? I would like to read it, too.

American Civil Liberties Union

 

[seatbackfurther]

Don't forget that America's "War on Terror" has actually increased the number of terrorist attacks in the world.

..and will continue to do so. We are viewed as bullies and an interfernce in Middle Eastern culture. They want us out of their lives, and I guess rightfully so. We continue to "infest" the middle east with our ideologies and so forth.
(hippy)

 

[seatbackfurther]

American Civil Liberties Union

good link(wiggle)

now i'm post whoring..

 

[glyph]

Don't forget that America's "War on Terror" has actually increased the number of terrorist attacks in the world.

that is hard to say. How many attacks would there have been if we didn't start this campaign? Increased historically, maybe, but without knowledge of an alternate dimension where there was no war on terror....

 

[glyph]

..and will continue to do so. We are viewed as bullies and an interfernce in Middle Eastern culture. They want us out of their lives, and I guess rightfully so. We continue to "infest" the middle east with our ideologies and so forth.
(hippy)

There is definitely an inbred hatred of western ways of life.

 

[glyph]

lol. That's the essense of opinion. It's like me saying there is a god, yet I have no fact to prove it, only more opinion and hearsay. You say there isn't a god, yet you have no fact to prove it. That's why it's an opinion. If it wasn't, then it would be a fact and not opinion... Anyway, now we're just getting into semantics.

it is semantics, don't confuse faith with opinion. I personally won't hold an opinion if there is no reason to do so. I personally have faith that God exists.

 

[glyph]

http://media.***********.com/georgewbushdrunk.wmv

Checked (second)

unfortunately, I'm at work and can't watch that, but I gather that getting drunk means low IQ? in that case much of the world is in trouble (birthday)

 

[seatbackfurther]

it is semantics, don't confuse faith with opinion. I personally won't hold an opinion if there is no reason to do so. I personally have faith that God exists.

opinion
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:

faith
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

(pullup)

 

[seatbackfurther]

unfortunately, I'm at work and can't watch that, but I gather that getting drunk means low IQ? in that case much of the world is in trouble (birthday)

Sometimes it does, but it's not always the case. In this case, he was governor at the time. When you hold office, you are held to standards. This is whether you like it or not.

 

[glyph]

has he made a habit of it?

 

[glyph]

Different results here: From www.m-w.com

Main Entry: opinion
Pronunciation: <TT>&-'pin-y&n</TT>
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : [size=-1]APPROVAL[/size], [size=-1]ESTEEM[/size]
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based
Main Entry: <SUP>1</SUP>faith
Pronunciation: <TT>'fAth</TT>
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /<TT>'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z</TT>/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at [size=-1]BIDE[/size]
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : [size=-1]LOYALTY[/size] b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs