dadasracecar
Member
Several local MS6s went to a dyno day at Extreme Motorsports in Odenton, MD. We went back to back on the same dyno same day so it's a pretty excellent comparison of the effects of mods.
I think most of us were pretty disappointed in the results after seeing y2kc0wb0y (stock) put down something not so far off of cherryspeed (most modded). I was definitely disappointed and that evo looked mighty tempting at the end of the day... Jordan, though, eased my frustration a bit when he described the problem as a throttle plate issue. Basically most performance mods that are done to cars are "breathing" mods that allow more air into the motor. When that gets in excess of the fueling capabilities, fuel pumps and injectors come in to play but we're not there yet IMO. Cherryspeed would close with his modified stock turbo. Our problem is that with all of these breathing mods, e.g. tbe, cai, fmic, tmic, manifold; we're making the car more efficient at higher rpm but the throttle plate is closing and we're not getting full benefit from them. It does me no good at high rpm to have a high flowing 3" exhaust if I can't get enough air through the damn throttle to make use of the extra exhaust capacity.
For clarity, Cherryspeed and I have identical mods save for his clipped turbo compared to my stocker, and those are cp-e standback (17 psi-cherry, 18-dada), cai, tbe, fmic, and DNP mani. jvoss65 has the cp-e standback (18.5 psi), cai, tbe, ETS TMIC, and DNP mani. Thabigo has cp-e cbe, cai, and the ETS TMIC. charles has an SRI, the cp-e standback (16 psi) and tbe, and the ETS TMIC. y2kc0wb0y is bone ass stock.
Well so I left feeling a little better and after studying the dynos I feel MUCH better. Here's the first run from my Cherryspeed, dadasracecar, jvoss65, charles, thabigo, and y2kc0wb0y with the cursor placed at y2kc0wb0y's peak power, 5274 rpm. What you should notice is that none of the rest of us have hit peak power by this point.
Here's where Cherryspeed makes peak power, 5437 rpm. That's about 150 rpm later. By this time y2kc0wb0y has lost 11 whp. I made my peak at 5380 rpm so about 100 rpm later.
Moving out in the band to 5600 Cherryspeed has dropped less than 1 whp while y2kc0wb0y has dropped 19 whp from his peak and I've lost 12 whp.
At 5898 rpm Cherryspeed has lost 15 whp, I've lost 29 whp, and y2kc0wb0y has dropped 57 whp.
Finally, at 6314 rpm Cherryspeed is 39 whp off of his peak sitting at 237 whp, I'm 56 whp off of my peak at 206 whp, and y2kc0wb0y is 103 down at 130 whp. At this point Cherry has 107 more whp than c0wb0y. Feel better cherry?
So, it's pretty clear that the throttle closing is all of our problem and that this starts btw 5200 and 5400 rpm. I got the impression cherryspeed wasn't pleased with his turbo but comparing it to the stock turbo, my car, it looks like it's good for 30 - 40 whp. That's a pretty damn good mod IMO. Especially considering I was running 18 psi and he was running 17. This is another clear indication of the breathing mod/throttle plate conundrum. At peak, we're only 6 whp different. At later rpm, Cherryspeed's more efficient turbo begins to clearly outshine my stock pos.
I believe now more than ever that the throttle plate is the next focus for the speed community. Until then, we'll just never fully realize our potential.
One more thing to put out there: I'm extremely conservative with my tune and have pulled 4 deg of timing at the upper rpms. Jvoss65 has added 3 deg of timing. The only difference btw our cars is that he's running the ETS TMIC to my cp-e FMIC but these are first run dynos so heat soak shouldn't be an issue here. I also have the fuel pump but our AFRs were nearly identical. The 7 degree timing difference doesn't seem to make that much difference in power.
And what about torque?
AFR:
I've spent a fair bit of time getting my afr where I want it using the standback and street tuning. It's spot on at 12:1
Here's my DH log for comparison of the afr.
Now I guess all that's left is for Laloosh to come and laugh about how low our numbers are. The drivetrain loss on the MS6 is pretty damn significant.
I think most of us were pretty disappointed in the results after seeing y2kc0wb0y (stock) put down something not so far off of cherryspeed (most modded). I was definitely disappointed and that evo looked mighty tempting at the end of the day... Jordan, though, eased my frustration a bit when he described the problem as a throttle plate issue. Basically most performance mods that are done to cars are "breathing" mods that allow more air into the motor. When that gets in excess of the fueling capabilities, fuel pumps and injectors come in to play but we're not there yet IMO. Cherryspeed would close with his modified stock turbo. Our problem is that with all of these breathing mods, e.g. tbe, cai, fmic, tmic, manifold; we're making the car more efficient at higher rpm but the throttle plate is closing and we're not getting full benefit from them. It does me no good at high rpm to have a high flowing 3" exhaust if I can't get enough air through the damn throttle to make use of the extra exhaust capacity.
For clarity, Cherryspeed and I have identical mods save for his clipped turbo compared to my stocker, and those are cp-e standback (17 psi-cherry, 18-dada), cai, tbe, fmic, and DNP mani. jvoss65 has the cp-e standback (18.5 psi), cai, tbe, ETS TMIC, and DNP mani. Thabigo has cp-e cbe, cai, and the ETS TMIC. charles has an SRI, the cp-e standback (16 psi) and tbe, and the ETS TMIC. y2kc0wb0y is bone ass stock.
Well so I left feeling a little better and after studying the dynos I feel MUCH better. Here's the first run from my Cherryspeed, dadasracecar, jvoss65, charles, thabigo, and y2kc0wb0y with the cursor placed at y2kc0wb0y's peak power, 5274 rpm. What you should notice is that none of the rest of us have hit peak power by this point.
Here's where Cherryspeed makes peak power, 5437 rpm. That's about 150 rpm later. By this time y2kc0wb0y has lost 11 whp. I made my peak at 5380 rpm so about 100 rpm later.
Moving out in the band to 5600 Cherryspeed has dropped less than 1 whp while y2kc0wb0y has dropped 19 whp from his peak and I've lost 12 whp.
At 5898 rpm Cherryspeed has lost 15 whp, I've lost 29 whp, and y2kc0wb0y has dropped 57 whp.
Finally, at 6314 rpm Cherryspeed is 39 whp off of his peak sitting at 237 whp, I'm 56 whp off of my peak at 206 whp, and y2kc0wb0y is 103 down at 130 whp. At this point Cherry has 107 more whp than c0wb0y. Feel better cherry?
So, it's pretty clear that the throttle closing is all of our problem and that this starts btw 5200 and 5400 rpm. I got the impression cherryspeed wasn't pleased with his turbo but comparing it to the stock turbo, my car, it looks like it's good for 30 - 40 whp. That's a pretty damn good mod IMO. Especially considering I was running 18 psi and he was running 17. This is another clear indication of the breathing mod/throttle plate conundrum. At peak, we're only 6 whp different. At later rpm, Cherryspeed's more efficient turbo begins to clearly outshine my stock pos.
I believe now more than ever that the throttle plate is the next focus for the speed community. Until then, we'll just never fully realize our potential.
One more thing to put out there: I'm extremely conservative with my tune and have pulled 4 deg of timing at the upper rpms. Jvoss65 has added 3 deg of timing. The only difference btw our cars is that he's running the ETS TMIC to my cp-e FMIC but these are first run dynos so heat soak shouldn't be an issue here. I also have the fuel pump but our AFRs were nearly identical. The 7 degree timing difference doesn't seem to make that much difference in power.
And what about torque?
AFR:
I've spent a fair bit of time getting my afr where I want it using the standback and street tuning. It's spot on at 12:1
Here's my DH log for comparison of the afr.
Now I guess all that's left is for Laloosh to come and laugh about how low our numbers are. The drivetrain loss on the MS6 is pretty damn significant.
