The massive Boost Thread

Are all the ribs thrust bearing? or is it just the 2nd one from the left in that picture? I don't have the block in my garage right now (out for machining) so it is hard for me to tell from the picture what is all thrust bearing or not. As I would think you'd only need to reinforce the rib that is carrying the thrust load.

I do understand where and what you are saying... I was originally thinking you were bracing from one main to another... which was where I was trying to figure out where you were clearing the crank lobes.
 
yeah, there is no way to tie them together you'd just hit the crank, though I think Beau has done some welding where the blue arrow is (on all 3 ribs, both sides) to strengthen, so doing the yellow box may be overkill... we'll know eventually though, because the thumper kit is going to push it HARD... beau is going all out.....big time
 
Ryan,

I spent some more time looking at my blown apart block (since I have that one around). I don't see a lot of reason in welding the majority of the main's areas. The only main I'd bother with is the one with the thrust bearing (one to the left/up from the one you have in yellow). That main in and of itself will bear all the brunt of the thrust loading. The others will never even see a thrust load becase the crank won't touch them in a lateral motion. But looking at it as well I didn't realize how open and flimsy those areas were! I'm going to talk to my machinist again and see about having him fill that all in.. unfortunately, welding cast iron isn't a ton of fun from my understanding, so I'll be curious to see what he thinks of doing that. Otherwise I'll just ignore the issue as there is little that can be done overall on that portion. The only other thing I could imagine doing, but would start to get very pricey, but would be the best of options in my opinion to kill the crank walk would be to machine the crank and block to add another 1 or 2 thrust bearings. the precision required would be rather insane however as those surfaces would all have to be aligned within .001" at the least I'd assume. So it'd be difficult, but distributing the lateral loads of the crank across more than one main would go a long way to preventing walk. With it just working on one it gets a bit difficult!

I'm also going to update the first post now with the possible solutions.

Let me know what you think on that!

Later,

Steve
 
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OK, about the rings....I dont know if any of you have heard about GAS PORTING the piston. Its basically drilling holes in the piston, it reaches the 1st ring land, this works for max seal, it will put pressure on the ring and close it against the wall.

The downside is... if you are running too rich or pump gas and its for street, those ports will get clogged. But it works good if it doesnt get clogged.

About rod bearings, some good race mechanics here just use stock bearings and give the rod a bit of sanding, this will give extra clearance for oil. BUT, if you do it yourself and you dont know what you are doing, jajajaj, you can blow the motor same day.

About the timing belt. As long as you keep stock rpm limits, good tensioner, no problems. The problem starts when revving up more, high lift cams and upgraded valve springs, all this add stress to the whole system, more directly to the belt.

Valves and heat. Yeah the may bend or melt, exhaust valves receives more heat, that happens mostly when you boost for long periods of time. One great solution is Stainless steel valves, once they bend they can be fixed easily, but they are very expensive.

Ive never heard crankwalk on this motor before. So I dont know what to say.

Clutch. A heavy duty Pressure plate (Xtreme) also affects the crank, too much use (like on daily) is bad for the crank. Everytime you put pressure on it, you are actually pushing thousands of pounds on the crank while it is rotating, putting excesive wear on it, this can also be an issue affecting for possible crankwalk. The best solution is to use heavy DISK, like the 4, 6 pucks or the whole disk "one-piece-puck" and a lighter plate, once it starts to slip, you will eventually need more pressure, but in the mean time, use less pressure and more clamp.
 
From talking to some people here and there they have been going with REDUCING the bearing clearances... some to things as insane as only 1 or 2 thousandths... far far below the 20-30 thousandths standard clearance. I'm going to follow the Oliver Rod recommended clearance unless I hear otherwise from research and further conversations.
 
igdrasil said:
Clutch. A heavy duty Pressure plate (Xtreme) also affects the crank, too much use (like on daily) is bad for the crank. Everytime you put pressure on it, you are actually pushing thousands of pounds on the crank while it is rotating, putting excesive wear on it, this can also be an issue affecting for possible crankwalk.
Iggy, I need to call your hand on this...the only pushing force the crank will ever feel is what your clutch fork pushes on it to disengage the plate, and this is not 1000s of pounds but more like 30lbs. The clutch release fork would break if it had to deliver any more than that.
 
I think I'm in the middle on this one... but I'm happy to be corrected... when the clutch release fork presses on the tines on the clutch it relieves the pressure compressing the clutch disc between the flywheel and the the pressure plate. Because the pressure plate is fixed to the flywheel the pressure it exerts on the disc does not transfer through to the crank as the flywheel is attached to the crank and the pressure plate is leveraging off of the flywheel anyway... so it is not forcing on the crank at all... only time the crank would get load would be when the clutch release fork is pressed...

now... there is more than 30 lbs there... as I can stand on the tines and not even budge them... and if it feels heavy through the hydraulic lines you KNOW it is a lot more force. The fork is easily good to a few hundred lbs.... so how much it is or it exerts... I don't know... but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in the 400 lb range or so, which a heavier pressure plate would exacerbate that problem. However, that loading occurs when the engine is not as loaded, so it is a minor issue at that point, and I think a small factor in the performance issues we are worrying about.
 
Gas ports, 2 types
p151244_image_large.jpg



all about piston/rings tech:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/77899/
 
Ahh, Steve is right, the clutch release can be 100+lbs. I forgot to think about the length of travel of the foot on the clutch (converts to more leverage). On another note, my block is going in with Beau's to get some gussetting done on them tomorrow. I think I'm going for the torque-bored hone job too.

BTW, those gas ports look nicely done!
 
I have a question, has anyone seen any articles where coating pistons in a turboed application would be a bad idea? Ie. flaking...
 
ddogg777 said:
I have a question, has anyone seen any articles where coating pistons in a turboed application would be a bad idea? Ie. flaking...
Not to my knowledge... but in fact today I was reading an article detailing a built Evo where they were shooting for a 800+WHP street driven, and they did pistons and rods. Mentioned that the OEM pistons in the EVO are thermal/dry lubricant coated. Can't imagine that Mitsu would be doing it if flaking was going to be an issue.
 
well I did some more study of the block tonight after I pulled out my severly fubared crank from that blown motor... I highly doubt this can possibly be a good thing, but I'd really hope their engineers aren't this stupid... but the thrust bearing is on the main rib that the back side of it is the major oil drain channel!!! Meaning that the rib that is supposed to be the strongest for lateral motion happens to have the least structure to hold it in place... seems absolutely idiotic to me!

I also confirmed that there is no lateral contact anywhere else for the crank than the single thrust rib. Therefore, reinforcing any other ribs I think is likely a waste of time as they will not do anything for lateral strength. I can see that there may be some block twisting/torsion benefits, but I'd consider that to be rather minimal comparatively as a contributer to crankwalk on these motors compared to the weaknesses of the thrust bearing rib.

Hope that helps, but shoot away at me if you think I'm off base... especially you Beau!!!

Later.

Steve
 
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stock pressure plate has clamping force of around 800-900psi, street heavy duty plates has around 1300-1800psi, extreme disk are way higher....and those are what Im talking about.

And Im talking about longetivity. It does add strain to the crank, and also will blow the brake/clutch pump and/or the lines/hoses.
 
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I hope you guys don't mind but I made this thread a sticky due to the good information that is on it!

Dave
 
I did some invesitgating last night.. and I may be pursuing this... It looks like it may be possible to cut another thrust bearing into one of the webs. The webs are dimensionally similar enough that it will work and the caps will function properly. However, the one thing that makes it a bit sketchy is that the crank has extra material for the height of the thrust bearing for the stock location. I need to look at how the fit is done, and I may be able to work around this regardless. I don't believe it will weaken the crank significantly as the amount of machining required will be rather minimal and it would be somewhat reflective of the other point in the crank. Additionally, I think the crank is strong enough as a part in and of itself that a slight weakening will be acceptable as other things will begin to have greater problems before the crank will become my weakness is my belief and hope at this point in time. I'll let you guys know if I find anything more out but I will talk with my machine shop next week and get moving on seeing what can or can't be done on this.

Later!

Steve
 
ddogg777 said:
I have a question, has anyone seen any articles where coating pistons in a turboed application would be a bad idea? Ie. flaking...
There is some concern about this because pistons like the CP are supposed to expand a bit.... if the expansion coefficients aren't similar depending on materials etc.... the material will flake because it will crack.
 
Cool... I don't think I'm going to do this though in my build... the forged disappate heat better than a standard piston anyway, and while reducing the chance of hotspots on top of the piston is kind of a nice bonus, I don't foresee it being a big enough issue to try and do this on my build... Also with the JandS and my minimal risk of detonation due to all the controls and so forth I don't have to worry as much about dome damage and melting... so further why I lean away... but at the same time it looks to only be about 100-150 bucks to have all 4 top coated... but dunno... curious as to anyone elses thoughts on it.
 
TurfBurn said:
Crank Walk: At high boost the crank can "walk" - move laterally in the block - and this can cause damage and wear to all components.
Solutions: Fill in/gusset the mains as necessary (focus on the thrust bearing main). Also, may be possible to cut crank and mains to add an additional thrust bearing.
This is what we did.
The thrust bearing is a half shell.We added a second tanged half shell thrust bearing to the main cap.So we now have a full faced thrust bearing.This will help alot with crank walk.
 
I am getting the domes, skirts, underside, and pin bore all coated for just $100. I shipped them off yesterday to the coater here in Phoenix. They have a special cermet piston dome coating designed for turbocharged or nitrous engines (techline calls it CBX). I am actually doing the coating to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine, not just protect the pistons from melting. Keeping more heat into the exhaust gases will have several benefits, some being better gas mileage and more power sent to the turbo.

If the coatings don't work, oh well, I can post here and tell you all to not do it.
But I have a strong feeling that they will... ;)
 
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