The GOD Delusion:

[1st Gen]

I dont think anyone here is mindless or bumbling. Please dont think for a second that I dont hold you all in the highest regard. The very nature of the conversation says that we are all able and willing to engage in discussions about the things that guide the most important decision in our lives. Were searching for understanding and that is to me the highest order of intelligence.

In some ways I envy your life. You are in an envelope of Gods love 24 hours a day. He is ever willing to forgive you sins and mistakes if youll only ask. The brotherhood that you feel when going to church is one of the most spiritually nourishing things a person can engage in. You are a community of caring people that know death is only a prequel to the greatest joy you will ever know, and youll be sharing that joy with everyone you ever loved in your life. That is powerful good medicine. Love, community, forgiveness, and belonging all combined in a lifestyle that says we'll defend this with our lives

Now in order to create balance, there has to be an opposite otherwise, it ends. Superman couldnt survive as a super hero with out his arch enemy Lex Luther and God cant survive without the Devil. The framework has been set. I am Gods lamb and I know its right because the love I feel in my heart tells me so. That means that the wolf must also real.

We must create our enemies otherwise our heroes have no meaning. Thus we have our self fulfilling prophecy. In the words of the Architect, the mistake made manifest.

Take those ingredients, love, community, caring, forgiveness, ect and take them out of the context of the religious discipline. You dont have to have wolves circling to keep the lambs together. Maybe people seek each other out because in our hearts, we are good. We are born of love, and we care for each other because it feels good. No price tags and nobody has to get hurt.
We may not go to heaven, but its okay. We have our lives, which is the true gift. Lets have some respect for the temple that holds our life, and lets revere the land that supports it. In my world, anybody who needs to have an abortion can get one, but nobody does because only rarely does anyone NEED to. NO FEAR. The value of life takes is true position at the head of the class. Im talking about quality, not quantity.


One more thing. In every person, there is the capacity for good and evil. The devil lives among us, and he hides behind our poker face.

 

[G-Papi]

What ~ the devil, and no god? How can this be?

(Just stirring the pot some.)

 

[Donas64]

I dont think anyone here is mindless or bumbling. Please dont think for a second that I dont hold you all in the highest regard. The very nature of the conversation says that we are all able and willing to engage in discussions about the things that guide the most important decision in our lives. Were searching for understanding and that is to me the highest order of intelligence.

In some ways I envy your life. You are in an envelope of Gods love 24 hours a day. He is ever willing to forgive you sins and mistakes if youll only ask. The brotherhood that you feel when going to church is one of the most spiritually nourishing things a person can engage in. You are a community of caring people that know death is only a prequel to the greatest joy you will ever know, and youll be sharing that joy with everyone you ever loved in your life. That is powerful good medicine. Love, community, forgiveness, and belonging all combined in a lifestyle that says we'll defend this with our lives

Now in order to create balance, there has to be an opposite otherwise, it ends. Superman couldnt survive as a super hero with out his arch enemy Lex Luther and God cant survive without the Devil. The framework has been set. I am Gods lamb and I know its right because the love I feel in my heart tells me so. That means that the wolf must also real.

We must create our enemies otherwise our heroes have no meaning. Thus we have our self fulfilling prophecy. In the words of the Architect, the mistake made manifest.

Take those ingredients, love, community, caring, forgiveness, ect and take them out of the context of the religious discipline. You dont have to have wolves circling to keep the lambs together. Maybe people seek each other out because in our hearts, we are good. We are born of love, and we care for each other because it feels good. No price tags and nobody has to get hurt.
We may not go to heaven, but its okay. We have our lives, which is the true gift. Lets have some respect for the temple that holds our life, and lets revere the land that supports it. In my world, anybody who needs to have an abortion can get one, but nobody does because only rarely does anyone NEED to. NO FEAR. The value of life takes is true position at the head of the class. Im talking about quality, not quantity.


One more thing. In every person, there is the capacity for good and evil. The devil lives among us, and he hides behind our poker face.

I most certainly believe in the devil. When I feel the tug of lust knowing that it could ruin my marriage if I give in, when I am watching or listening to something I know I have no business listening to, when I slip and use language that is offensive to myself and others, when I do not honor my parents, when I make choices that I know could lead me down a dark path. But thats life. It can't be all a cakewalk right? Thats when I call upon my faith to give me the strenght to do what I know to be right. You're exactly right about the search for understanding and meaning. I just wish the world both religious and secular could at least respect each other if not agree with each other. But thats just a pipedream. I'm determined to do my part to love and respect my fellow man even if he does not wish to do the same for me. You can only control your actions. It's up to others to reciprocate.

 

[1st Gen]

What ~ the devil, and no god? How can this be?

(Just stirring the pot some.)

Just speaking figuratively. Everyone knows what I mean when I say evil or The Devil.

 

[Donas64]

Disdain for Christianity? I am angry with Christians. It said on the front of the local news paper here today that an estimated 600,000 Iraqis civilians have died since 2003. I knew from the very beginning that Bush was bad news for us. Now because of hot button issues like gay marriage and abortion, we have concentration camps. Habeas Corpus can be side stepped as easily as the Bill of Rights.

Truly, who is your king if you savior is a liar.

I don't worship George Bush. But I do pray for him as I pray for every one of our leaders be it Bill Clinton or anyone else. The bible teached to pray for those in Authority over you that they make sound choices and govern well.

Its well known that the 600,000 number is not a verifiable number as it it garnered from interviews and not from actual bodycounts. The number could be 40,000 or 400,000 for all we know. Besides if we believe everything we read in the newspaper and see on the news then that mean thousands of people died in the superdome during hurricane Katrina. We now know that that was totally false. Any human death is something to be mourned. But I don't blame all those deaths on Bush or the U.S Military.

There are terrorists, insurgents and even the Iraqi people themselves that should share part of the blame. People so determined to kill themselves and other. If they could just lay aside some of their differences and work to build a stronger Iraq, they would be better off. But the choice is theirs to make. And at least they have the option to make it now.

For all the talk of Bushes "Atrocities" where is the Talk of Sadaams Atrocities. The Gassings, The Mass graves, the live burials, the brutal executions. Those things are never covered and even his trial is not covered by a media who gave that loonie John Mark Carr so much airtime for absolutely nothing!

I don't see the link between gay marriage, abortion and concentration camps but as far as those things go, I belive that marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. I hold no hatred towards gays or lesbians and I hope the hold no hatred towards me ( I have 2 good friends who are gay ) but I don't think that the esscense of what Marriage is should be tampered with.

As for abortion, I believe that if the mothers life is in danger then it might be an option. In cases of **** or incest, its tougher for me because the unborn child not responsible for the circumstances of it's birth. Thats a deeper issue than I have time to get into now.

As for the concentration camps, if you are referring to Guantanamo Bay, I believe that those prisoners are treated with more respect and given more privileges than they deserve. Those who have mis-treated prisoners have been brought to justice and sentenced which is more than you can say for some other countries.

We allow them to practice their religion, give them healthcare, provide excellent meals for them, and IMO we do not torture them. I believe the men and women of our Armed forces to be honorable and good people for the most part.

Those men fly no flag, wear no uniform and fight for no country. Technically the geneva conventions don't even apply to them and I am most certain that beheading, burning and being hung are not supported by the geneva convention which is worse than ANYTHING we have done to them, yet they have done and continue to do these things to our men and women.

I know that we will not see eye to eye on many of these issues but we all are entitles to our opinions and beliefs. I can personally say that I don't feel thast my civil liberties have been infringed upon.

I wish that we never had to go to war, I wish that 9/11 never happened. I wish that none of this crap had happened. But it did and while the actions taken could have been different, any maybe should have been different, I don't think that the path that we took was entirely wrong. I don't agree with all of the choices made my this administration, when I consider the alternatives, I'm glad that we have leadership who is not afraid to confront the tough issues facing us in the world today.

 

[jersey_emt]

I disagree. His intentions are to convince people that questioning the existence of God is in fact rational and should not be feared.

The book I mentioned earlier (The End of Faith by Sam Harris) provides a somewhat extreme extrapolation of this idea -- not only is the notion of a higher being irrational in some ways, it is actually a danger to society.

LOL wow!

Yeah, I admit it's a rather extreme viewpoint, but it's an interesting one, and the book is a good read. I'd like to suggest that you give it a shot -- I know it's not going to change your views on the subject, but it offers some good insight onto why some people question the notion of a higher being. I know it is difficult for many religous people to truly understand why so many people have denounced religion and the existence of God. Just take some of his more "out there" arguments with a grain of salt (although I have to admit, despite how crazy they might sound so some, his arguments actually do have some logical basis).

 

[Donas64]

Yeah, I admit it's a rather extreme viewpoint, but it's an interesting one, and the book is a good read. I'd like to suggest that you give it a shot -- I know it's not going to change your views on the subject, but it offers some good insight onto why some people question the notion of a higher being. I know it is difficult for many religous people to truly understand why so many people have denounced religion and the existence of God. Just take some of his more "out there" arguments with a grain of salt (although I have to admit, despite how crazy they might sound so some, his arguments actually do have some logical basis).

It is an interesting subject.. It must be pointed out though that for as many people who do not believe in the existence of a higher power, there are thousands more that do and there are excellent arguments in both camps. And as long as both camps can debate the existence of God in a respectufl manne, I think it's an excellent conversation to have.

Along with my faith, I just take a common sense approach. Sometimes the simplest approach is the best. For me, just that fact the we exist, can breath, that everything works the way it does: The ecosystem, our bodies, the perfect balance of the universe, all the varieties of species and how they interact with each other, I mean all this STUFF, all these things: I simply cannot believe it's all an accident. I'm no gambling man but I wouldn't even take those odds.

I am not discounting science. There are scientific explanations for a great many things in our world. But science is but a small part of a much bigger picture.

I have seen the work of God too many times in my life to discount it. Look I for sure am no saint, and have done things that given the chance I would go back and change in a heartbeat, but I know that there is always hope for a better day ahead and plans for a bright future.

I'm sorry I get all sentimental over stuff like this. Just things that have happened in my life is all. I will never call anyone a fool or ridicule themfor doubting the existence of God, but I would encourage them to examine their hears, dig a little deeper, find the pastor of a bible believing solid christian church and sit down and ask him your questions. Tell him about your doubts and have a little debate. Keep in mind that not everyone who calls himself/herself a Christian is one. There are a lot of people out there who do and say messed up things in the name of Christ. But its worth seeking out a good pastor and have a talk with them. It can't hurt anyhting. Just my humble opinion.

 

[1st Gen]

My desire to debate the existence of God is tempered by the real comfort that people find in their faith. What kind of person would I be to try and take that away? On the other hand, when your faith begins affecting my schools and my system of government, then I will have something to say. It may even come across as an attack on religion itself, but it really isnt. Its people that use religious persuasion for political agendas that get me uptight.

 

[gone_fishin]

I've been avoiding looking at this thread mainly due to the title (I am a theist), but now that I look at it, I'm glad it's turning into a meaningful discussion.

As I stated before, I am a theist. I am however, also a molecular biologist and a biochemist-- these are the areas of study that I have dedicated my life to. In previous years I have studied advanced physics and quantum mechanics (discourse in string theory), in addition to evolutionary biology. I think that it's a pretty commonly held belief that science and theology (or philosophy for that matter) are incompatable and therefore, an individual cannot subscribe to both. It can however, be done. I will admit that I struggle significantly with believing in the infinite and the immaterial when my studies and work revolve around the polar opposite-- every day I am slapped in the face with information and concepts that underscore the ideology of athiesm. However, I have never been able to escape the fact that the deeper and deeper you get into these concepts, the more defined the boundary of material existance gets.

Additionally, nothing I have studied has ever deviated from the theory of universal equilibrium-- everything is in an interconnected balance, or moving toward it. Although good is significantly less pronounced, evil SCREAMS for attention every day-- it is inescapable and undeniably present. That rather ugly reminder (for me) justifies a belief in the good. Put simply, by the theory of universal equilibrium, the existance of evil is proof of the existance of an equal and opposite.

For those of you that struggle (like me) in believing in an immaterial higher power and who need concrete arguements in its support, I can honestly say that I've found the greatest solace in modern philosophy-- specifically in Descarte's meditation on first philosophy and his illustration of mind/body dualism (the mind-body problem). Deep reflection on this concept is what keeps me believing in the immaterial.

 

[jersey_emt]

I think that it's a pretty commonly held belief that science and theology (or philosophy for that matter) are incompatable and therefore, an individual cannot subscribe to both. It can however, be done.

I am personally on the fence between theism and atheism. But here is something that I like to say when people vehemently argue that religion and science are mutually incompatible --

Religion tells us what God did. Science tells us how he did it.

 

[gone_fishin]

I am personally on the fence between theism and atheism. But here is something that I like to say when people vehemently argue that religion and science are mutually incompatible --

Religion tells us what God did. Science tells us how he did it.

You are an agnostic like I was for quite a long time. I have much more respect for agnostics than I do for either theists or athiests who side with an ideology without prior reflection. It just means that you're thinking deeply and valuing your decision-- and that's good.

 

[GreyMan]

so the fyling spaghetti monster exists eh? what a tool.

 

[1st Gen]

so the fyling spaghetti monster exists eh? what a tool.

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[GreyMan]

haha...so serious. lighten up buddy.

 

[Killer]

haha...so serious. lighten up buddy.

This thread just may be too much for you.

 

[Killer]

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(lol)

 

[Killer]

Additionally, nothing I have studied has ever deviated from the theory of universal equilibrium-- everything is in an interconnected balance, or moving toward it. Although good is significantly less pronounced, evil SCREAMS for attention every day-- it is inescapable and undeniably present. That rather ugly reminder (for me) justifies a belief in the good. Put simply, by the theory of universal equilibrium, the existance of evil is proof of the existance of an equal and opposite.

For those of you that struggle (like me) in believing in an immaterial higher power and who need concrete arguements in its support, I can honestly say that I've found the greatest solace in modern philosophy-- specifically in Descarte's meditation on first philosophy and his illustration of mind/body dualism (the mind-body problem). Deep reflection on this concept is what keeps me believing in the immaterial.

I was agnostic for many years. I second the opinion that this must be a well thought out process. I also find comfort that even though I may find it weird the people like Donas are so convinced in a GOD...and that it works for him is admirable.
Like others though...leave it out of my government.

 

[Donas64]

My desire to debate the existence of God is tempered by the real comfort that people find in their faith. What kind of person would I be to try and take that away? On the other hand, when your faith begins affecting my schools and my system of government, then I will have something to say. It may even come across as an attack on religion itself, but it really isnt. Its people that use religious persuasion for political agendas that get me uptight.

The only problem with that is that you schools and system of govt. are also my schools and system of govt. And sometimes faith and politics get intertwined and it can be hard or even impossible to reach a compromise. My faith does oftem times affect my political views. It can't be helped. Same way maybe in a school I would not want my child to be taught sexual education at a young age by perhaps someone who's views on the matter differ from mine. If it's optional thats a different story. So religion, education and politics will always bang heads because our beliefs are tied into and an integral belief of who we are, no matter your race or religion. For as much as a religious person would inject their faith to achieve a political agena, a secular person would want their views and agendas in the political arena as well.

 

[Hughes412]

I cant help but think when our fourfathers said seperation of church and state they meant that the Catholic Church should not run or have authority over parts of the government. But I highly doubt that they meant you should not make laws or govern the country with out using the morals that our religion teaches. You will always have some form of church in the state. The day that doesnt happen it the day America falls.

If anything our kids need religion more today then ever before.

 

[Donas64]

I cant help but think when our fourfathers said seperation of church and state they meant that the Catholic Church should not run or have authority over parts of the government. But I highly doubt that they meant you should not make laws or govern the country with out using the morals that our religion teaches. You will always have some form of church in the state. The day that doesnt happen it the day America falls.

If anything our kids need religion more today then ever before.

I think thats a valid point. As much as I love this country I immigrated to, I fear for the future of my generation (I'm 23). It seems to me a me first, screw you, get all I can while the getting is good, screw family, material pleasure over all else, money money money, I want it and I want it now no patience, sex sex sex, LOOK AT MEEEEEE generation.

I don't believe America is going to hell in a handbasket, but I do know that the religious values my parents instilled in me are a HUGE part of who and where I am today and I am determined to pass it on to my kids. I want them to go to a good public school and interact with kids and learn to function socially, I want to make sure they have a good foundation an moral compass with which to navigate those waters which is why I see so many in my generation and the generation following it floundering pointlessly.