The end of high powered cars?

Are you sure this is what drives the currents? I thought it was the concentration of salt....

other than that i am in Happy and Angry's camp.
http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/thc_fact_sheet.html

Pretty sure, yea. It's one of the major driving forces of deep water currents. Roughly, as water reaches the poles, it is cooled by sea ice, becomes more dense, and is driven downward. Cooling and the presence/formation of ice affect salinity levels, so the two are actually inter-related.

I'm not too worried about the planet "healing" itself. As a system, it has done a marvelous job of finding some sort of equilibrium for billions of years. This change in the system, and a new equilibrium is reached. CO2 levels go up, temperature rises, a new equilibrium will be reached. Some animals will die off, some will thrive, some crops will die off, some will thrive, but over time a new balance in nature will be hit. It's a very complex but very self-regulating system. My concern is that this self-regulating process might very well produce a system in which our existence either becomes very difficult to sustain or impossible to sustain. I do not want to see what happens if the grain/corn belt in the middle of our continent dies off because of warming, shifting weather patterns, other climate changes or shifts in the fresh water cycle, for example. If we are in a position to maintain the status quo that has, let's be honest, made human civilization thrive for the last several thousand years, I think we should look into it if for no reason other that simple self-preservation.
 
An interesting read...

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/global_warming.html

To say that global warming caused by anthropogenic CO2 production is a reality is highly debatable. I too am concerned about the sociological and economic implications of the climate change scare, which IMO is a money and power grab of the highest proportions, and the average Joe will pay dearly for it.
 
I don't believe I said "caused by anthropogenic CO2 production." I have said it's anthropogenic. CO2 is a contributor, as are: carbon particulate matter (also from burning things), carbon monoxide, water vapor, methane from large pig and cattle farms, deforestation affecting the ability to regulate CO2, etc etc etc. There are lots of causes. Many contributing factors are man-made.

I'm not sure "climate change" is a scare when it's, you know, real.

But anyway. To come way, way, way back on topic. Is climate change real? Yes. Is it a problem? Yes. Do I think something should be done about it? Yes. Do I want the things to be done about it to be prudent, backed by researched, financially feasible and not limited-resource dependent? Yes. Do I want us to keep having small fast vehicles like the MS3, even if that vehicle is a 12-second 1/4 electric car with a CVT? Yes. Do I think that our oil-based economy is unsustainable and that price fluctuations in oil are going to wreck devestation in our day to day lives if we don't start transitioning away from oil? Yes (there are some predictions of $200 a barrel oil by next years, for example). Do I think we need to put time and effort and money into preventing the sort of economic destabalization that is inevitable in an economy driven by oil as it slowly stops being a commodity and starts becoming a limited resource? Yes.

Do I think we are doing enough to achieve these ends? No. Ethanol is a crock, battery-based energy storage is dependant on precious metals and is still limited-resource dependent not to mention the source of electricity is still primarily coal (also fairly inefficient), hydrogen as a fuel source is currently not economically feasible given current technology (I'd seriously like research into this), solar is still too inefficient, and on and on it goes.
 
Two words: dilithium crystals.

I always liked artificial quantum singularities better than dilithium crystals, since only natural dilithium crystals are suitable for warp core applications, and natural dilithium crystals are a limited resource.

I wonder what the 0-60 time of a quantum singularity equipped MS3 would be?
 
That's not a source. That's a link to an image that still does not reference a single damn source. I want to know where the data used in that image comes from.

EDIT: dear god don't even bother, it's from a conspiracy theory website. Oy vey, the eye rolling I've got going on here. Can we get a little intellectual honesty/rigor in a discussion about this, please?

Before you roll your eyes in the back of your head, that was an informal graph. Many true scientists have been, and continue to disprove the global warming theory as put forward by Al Gore and his group of people. They consistently poke it completely full of holes, yet they prod ever onward.

Here is a small quote from yet a different internet source explaining this somewhat.
Why have I focused so much on Gores hypothesis in An Inconvenient Truth? Several reasons. For one, Gore is the best-known spokesman for the anthropogenic hypothesis, even though most of what he preaches is misleading, exaggerated, and often plain wrong. Much of it doesnt even agree with what the IPCC preaches (see Al Gore: The speech he needs to give).

A second reason is that few of the consensus climate scientists have come out against Gores ideas, although these scientists are very willing to attack those skeptical of the human-caused warming theory. In general, orthodox climate science would rather support Gore than criticize his errors errors so glaring that even a British judge could easily point them out lest the anthropogenic hypothesis lose public support.

And, most tellingly, the IPCCs consensus scientists were willing to accept a Nobel Peace Prize with Gore, even though most climate scientists, if not all of them, must be aware that much of what Gore says in his film and books is misleading, exaggerated, and often plain wrong. Clearly, they accept Gores hypothesis even though recent climate research, and particularly findings that the planet isnt currently warming, have falsified most of the anthropogenic hypothesis and the rest Gores predictions of doom cant be tested and therefore cant be falsified and therefore dont qualify as true scientific hypotheses.

In other words, much of what passes for climate science these days isnt science because it either fails to provide a proper falsifiable hypothesis or, when it does, the hypothesis is falsified but not abandoned or revised. Climate researchers with the true scientific spirit would, at this point, leave the anthropogenic carbon dioxide hypothesis behind and move on to learning more about what are more likely the real causes of climate change: natural cycles.
Postscript

What would qualify as good hypotheses on global warming? JunkScience.com has issued the Ultimate Global Warming Challenge: $500,000 to the first person to prove, in a scientific manner, that humans are causing harmful global warming. The winner only has to disprove (falsify) the following two non-anthropogenic hypotheses, thereby increasing support for the anthropogenic hypothesis:
Global Warming Challenge Hypothesis 1

Manmade emissions of greenhouse gases do not discernibly, significantly and predictably cause increases in global surface and tropospheric temperatures along with associated stratospheric cooling. [In non-hypothesis language: Prove human emissions are causing warming.]
Global Warming Challenge Hypothesis 2

The benefits equal or exceed the costs of any increases in global temperature caused by manmade greenhouse gas emissions between the present time and the year 2100, when all global social, economic and environmental effects are considered. [In non-hypothesis language: Prove that the benefits of fighting warming will be greater than the costs.]

So far, nobody on the anthropogenic side has stepped forward to collect what should be easy money.
 
I always liked artificial quantum singularities better than dilithium crystals, since only natural dilithium crystals are suitable for warp core applications, and natural dilithium crystals are a limited resource.

I wonder what the 0-60 time of a quantum singularity equipped MS3 would be?

I gather you could take a MS3 slingshotting around the sun with two humpback whales in tow. From a roll, that is.
 
RE: Super Unique

You are providing compelling rhetoric without any specifics. You are quoting things without sourcing them and using "informal" graphs to support your position.

I'm too lazy to construct a body of links for you when one is already in place (much as I hate to use wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Scientific_consensus

Simply follow the footnotes provided. They are numerous. Let me quote one of them for you, specifically:

http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/climate_change/mtg_200702/aaas_climate_statement.pdf

The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society. Accumulating data from across the globe reveal a wide array of effects: rapidly melting glaciers, destabilization of major ice sheets, increases in extreme weather, rising sea level, shifts in species ranges, and more. The pace of
change and the evidence of harm have increased markedly over the last five years.

Followed later by:

The conclusions in this statement reflect the scientific consensus represented by, for example, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (www.ipcc.ch/), and the Joint
National Academies statement (http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf).

Followed then by several names of doctors and climatologists that worked on the papers that are actually referenced in the statement. And that's just the first footnote. There are another seven for you to go read, if you'd like.

I mean, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Actual research papers. From actual scientists and researchers and climatologists. To which people reply with GM/ExxonMobil funded think tank opinions, un-sourced informal graphs from conspiracy theory websites, and a quote from what reads like a blog.

Come on, guys.
 
I am likely with you on the matter of reducing the amount of resources we use, but likely for different reasons. Right now we leave far too large a footprint on the environment, but global warming isn't the reason (if it's ever proven true) , there are only so many resources to consume on this planet before we run out. This being said, I am really not ready to jump on board some of the actions desired by the global warming groups. We are already in the midst of a global economic crisis right now, and adding further costs to our lives is not prudent right now, considering we are already experiencing a reduced quality of life, and rising costs all around us. Someone needs to prove the benefit of a change before legislating we all follow it. More laws do not equal the right thing in most circumstances.

I won't get into a huge debate over this since that's pointless on a car forum anyways.
 
When the next ice age begins, and there will be another ice age, the global warming hoaxers will take credit for cooling and saving the planet. It will be there only way to not be seen a fool.

The short term temerature readings we have that are the basses of any sides claim are meaningless compaired to the long term geological record which show a very consistant swing between ice ages and periods of warming.
 
This being said, I am really not ready to jump on board some of the actions desired by the global warming groups.
Nor am I.
We are already in the midst of a global economic crisis right now, and adding further costs to our lives is not prudent right now, considering we are already experiencing a reduced quality of life, and rising costs all around us.
It's a bit far afield (as is most of this thread) but... some of the ways we could be spending money now will lead to many long term economic benefits. I'm not saying we should spend a lot of money on it, only that it should continue to be something we invest in. Energy independence and alternative fuel sources should be developed, and if we stop investigating them, other countries won't. This is not an area of research and development that we want to be behind in.
Someone needs to prove the benefit of a change before legislating we all follow it.
I'm pretty sure I've been advocating that for this entire discussion.
More laws do not equal the right thing in most circumstances.
This is a very general statement, but in a very general way it's one I suppose I can agree with it.

I won't get into a huge debate over this since that's pointless on a car forum anyways.[/QUOTE]
 
When the next ice age begins, and there will be another ice age, the global warming hoaxers will take credit for cooling and saving the planet. It will be there only way to not be seen a fool.

The short term temerature readings we have that are the basses of any sides claim are meaningless compaired to the long term geological record which show a very consistant swing between ice ages and periods of warming.

Dude, this isn't just about us seeing growing temperature readings; we're pretty damn sure we know why they've been increasing at this point.

Look at it this way:

1. Do certain gasses in the atmosphere make planets hotter? Yes. If you want proof look at the baking oven that is Venus. Or look at our own planet's history: the rock compositions from the beggining of Ice Ages contained a lot of organic carbon, which means less of it was in the atmosphere: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050128223438.htm
So low amounts of CO2 in the atomosphere contributed to the Ice Ages.

2. Have we been causing bigger quantities of such gasses to be released recently? Yes. Since the Industrial Revolution we've been burning everything we could get our hands on to produce energy. Smoke goes up into the air and it takes a while for trees and other plants to absorb all that stuff. Add to that fact that we've been cutting down more and more forests and instead converting that land to pastures for methane farting cattle and it should be obvious that we're releasing a lot more greenhouse gasses.

3. Is there a statistically correlated increase in global temperature during the last 200 years with our increase in emissions? Yes. But common sense should be telling you that anyway.

The only questions left are:

1. How bad and how quickly are we affecting the climate?
I'll leave that to the scientists because there is some variation in their estimates.

2. Do we care if we affect it?
We humans aren't a very far-sighted race. Many of us don't care since the really bad effects will probably come into effect after several lifetimes. There are many who are forced to contribute to the problem in order to feed their families (farmers in Africa & South America cutting down the jungle, etc.) So the answer here is that some people care, but currently not enough to really change anything.

2. Can we actually change anything even if we do care?
In my opinion, no. Not realistically anyway. The infastructure is too invovled at this point and we are all too used to these conviniences that come with having electrical power for our homes and vehicles to drive around. Perhaps we can slow it down a little bit, but I don't think anything significant can be really gained by asking people to make personal sacrifices for this.

So in the end, yes it's a problem and it really should be pretty obvious to anyone by now. But no, nothing much can be done about it by you and me. Perhaps scientists will figure out an arificial way to get these chemicals out of the atmosphere, I dunno. Until then, lets just hope it won't be all that bad and if you really care make some small sacrifices in hope of slowing this thing down.
 
Im just gonna throw this out there.... there are a few theories about how global warming could cause an ice age. They aren't too far fetched. Some don't hold much water, while others do.

The problem with much of this stuff is, depending on which way you tip the scale, it doesn't take a huge change to start a snowball effect. What might seem like only a small consequence at first can grow into a a much more threatening issue rather quick.

Weather or not you believe in global warming, the fact is we are not practicing a sustainable existence. We are tipping the scale. Sure someone will make money off all of this one way or the other. But its not about money for most of us. Its about survival of our species, and maintaining our eco system. We are no better then any other species on this planet, despite our general feelings of being superior and invincible, we are in fact very far from both those things. If we out grow our ecosystem (the planet), we will suffer the consequence same as any other species. We will die. Not as individuals, but as a species. Why this fact doesn't concern more people is a mystery to me. There are reports that say it won't be in this life and some say it will.

Is this really the kind of thing we want to gamble on?
 
the highest performance engines are the most efficient anyway so will will be seeing alot more efficient high powered cars
 
One other thing that could help is to improve on is aerodynamics. Many car designs ignore it.... aka most SUVs, Jeeps, Pickups, XB, that honda box thing...etc etc etc. Reduce drag can greatly up efficiency. It wont solve the problem completly, but it will help.
 
lighter weight... how come bikes can keep getting lighter and if anything cars are stagnating if not going the wrong way...
 
lighter weight... how come bikes can keep getting lighter and if anything cars are stagnating if not going the wrong way...
People like leather seats and better speakers and air conditioning and electric motors for their windows and mirrors and rain sensors and sound proofing and nice soft feeling plastics and ergonomic 6-way adjustable seats and telescoping height adjustable steering wheels and traction control and AWD and...

Were as on a bike, less is often more.

Although, there are a lot of bikes (Goldwings for example) that have bloated rather than leaned down.
 
the highest performance engines are the most efficient anyway so will will be seeing alot more efficient high powered cars
Sort of. The 4 cylinder motors Honda puts together are "high performance" engines in that they are very efficient at getting the most energy possible out of the fuel it burns and converting into mechanical energy. They don't produce a lot of power, but they are efficient with their fuel.

Where as our engine, arguably "high performance", wastes a lot of fuel trying to keep the combustion chamber cool.

It depends on what you mean by efficiency. A high performance NA motor running at or near perfect stoichiometric AFRs is "efficient", but if it's a 4.0L v8 it's still burning more gas than something with half the size and a third the power.
 

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