suspension: put it in perspective for me
- Thread starter sleeper_
- Start date
hehehe I thought you already order the VW?
The VW will be hard to make handle anywhere near the MSP as it is heavy as hell and lowered too much will just make it bouncy and kill the switc back ability of the car.
Lukily there are a million parts for those damn cars!
The VW will be hard to make handle anywhere near the MSP as it is heavy as hell and lowered too much will just make it bouncy and kill the switc back ability of the car.
Lukily there are a million parts for those damn cars!
scapamouche
Member
The VW is both heavy, and doesn't have an independent rear suspension. That will make the car harder to balance and more twitchy than a proper IRS...
The WRX understeers BADLY when stock. The torque split acutally makes the push WORSE not better, according to ALL of my WRX driving autox friends.
RSX-S has very good handling stock, but still pushes pretty bad. The torque is low enough at low rpms that the weight of the car is a limit. If you choose the right aftermarket parts, the RSX will handle WONDERFULLY...
The MSP has by far the BEST setup of these four right out of the box. The car is mostly neutral and grips well: I am competitive locally in an autox class where my opposition is mostly WRXs with over $2000 in suspension mods! The car also has a great ride considering how well it handles. My last car had slightly better handling, but was so stiffly sprung that I occasionally got backaches from driving it.
All three of the other options are probably faster than the MSP in a straight line, but I wouldn't pick ANY of them to beat the MSP on a twisty road... or an autox...
The WRX understeers BADLY when stock. The torque split acutally makes the push WORSE not better, according to ALL of my WRX driving autox friends.
RSX-S has very good handling stock, but still pushes pretty bad. The torque is low enough at low rpms that the weight of the car is a limit. If you choose the right aftermarket parts, the RSX will handle WONDERFULLY...
The MSP has by far the BEST setup of these four right out of the box. The car is mostly neutral and grips well: I am competitive locally in an autox class where my opposition is mostly WRXs with over $2000 in suspension mods! The car also has a great ride considering how well it handles. My last car had slightly better handling, but was so stiffly sprung that I occasionally got backaches from driving it.
All three of the other options are probably faster than the MSP in a straight line, but I wouldn't pick ANY of them to beat the MSP on a twisty road... or an autox...
guys, to get an idea of the difference between the regular gti and the suspension in the 337/20th ae gti, take a look at this link:
http://www.vwvortex.com/features/12_01/12_28/index.shtml
it's the suspension setup of the 25th ae gti in europe. gives you an idea that it's much much improved..
http://www.vwvortex.com/features/12_01/12_28/index.shtml
it's the suspension setup of the 25th ae gti in europe. gives you an idea that it's much much improved..
Similar design, different execution.
VW: Strut front, twist beam rear. Somewhat softer springs than MSP, fairly firm shocks, and the 337 is lowered compared to a stock GTI. It'lll hang in there with an MSP but is heavier and weight is the enemy of quickness. The VW makes up for this with horsepressure, torque, wider tires (225's on 18's vs our 215's on 17's) and smoothness. It's built like a vault and has better seats (Recaros) than the MSP. I believe the VW has an electronic limited slip (basically ABS in reverse) rather than the mechanical one. It's also more expensive. I'd actually consider it a better car in total, in that it has more content, is probably bigger, and the motor, while powerful as a locomotive, still leaves a LOT of headroom for mods (225-240 reliable horsepower is easily attainable).
RSX/S: Don't know, but Hondas are great cars, reliable. The RSX is small and even smaller inside though.
WRX: Great car, better than the MSP in many areas, and oodles of upgrades available. The suspension (IIRC) is somewhat taller and softer than the MSP but as or more capable in that you've got 3 wheels pulling (open diff in front or I'd say "4") and more horsepower. The WRX is more "real world" optimized where the MSP is more "pavement only".
The MSP, as said above, is more "pavement-only" suspended. It's firm to the point of being harsh on some surfaces, but well controlled. The steering feel is great, even on a par with a Mini (a benchmark and a tall compliment). The engine and suspension from the factory, though, are tuned within an inch of their reliable (and warrantee-able) life - there's not much further one can easily take the MSP (as opposed to the VW or Subie, where more horsepower or handling is more easily available).
I guess in a nutshell, the MSP is a more optimized pavement/autox car than the WRX or 332, the WRX is more an all weather interceptor and the 332 more a really firm touring/distance/autobahn car. To me, the RSX is just a really small, reliable, sensible-shoes sports coupe/commuter. In their elements, IMHO each is among the best available at the price. What's your preference?
VW: Strut front, twist beam rear. Somewhat softer springs than MSP, fairly firm shocks, and the 337 is lowered compared to a stock GTI. It'lll hang in there with an MSP but is heavier and weight is the enemy of quickness. The VW makes up for this with horsepressure, torque, wider tires (225's on 18's vs our 215's on 17's) and smoothness. It's built like a vault and has better seats (Recaros) than the MSP. I believe the VW has an electronic limited slip (basically ABS in reverse) rather than the mechanical one. It's also more expensive. I'd actually consider it a better car in total, in that it has more content, is probably bigger, and the motor, while powerful as a locomotive, still leaves a LOT of headroom for mods (225-240 reliable horsepower is easily attainable).
RSX/S: Don't know, but Hondas are great cars, reliable. The RSX is small and even smaller inside though.
WRX: Great car, better than the MSP in many areas, and oodles of upgrades available. The suspension (IIRC) is somewhat taller and softer than the MSP but as or more capable in that you've got 3 wheels pulling (open diff in front or I'd say "4") and more horsepower. The WRX is more "real world" optimized where the MSP is more "pavement only".
The MSP, as said above, is more "pavement-only" suspended. It's firm to the point of being harsh on some surfaces, but well controlled. The steering feel is great, even on a par with a Mini (a benchmark and a tall compliment). The engine and suspension from the factory, though, are tuned within an inch of their reliable (and warrantee-able) life - there's not much further one can easily take the MSP (as opposed to the VW or Subie, where more horsepower or handling is more easily available).
I guess in a nutshell, the MSP is a more optimized pavement/autox car than the WRX or 332, the WRX is more an all weather interceptor and the 332 more a really firm touring/distance/autobahn car. To me, the RSX is just a really small, reliable, sensible-shoes sports coupe/commuter. In their elements, IMHO each is among the best available at the price. What's your preference?
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Twist Beam is a variation on a straight axle, only the axle is shaped like a "U" with the wheels at the extreme ends. It gives a low trunk floor, some independence to the wheel movement, and some resistance to "roll" (meaning in theory it doesn't need as large an anti-sway bar to get the same effect). It's not totally "independent" nor is it "dependent" and can actually be made to handle quite well.
What I referred to wasn't ESP (which is a stability program described accurately above) but EDL. EDL, or Electronic Differential Lock, is an add-on to the "traction control" program. It's based on an open diff or "one legger" where the wheel with the least resistance spins - only the ABS computer senses this spin and literally brakes that wheel - forcing power to the OTHER wheel which, in theory, has more traction. It works, but only to a point. It may get you out of Aunt Mary's snowed-in driveway, but in performance situations (or extended use as on a lo-ong snowy hill) it'll burn up brake pads & rotors and is not a good substitute for a "real" clutch, geared, or other mechanical limited slip differential.
BTW, Traction Control takes the EDL one step further in that if it tries the above and, if it then senses BOTH wheels spinning, (comparing their rotation to that of the non-powered rear wheels) it'll actually close the electronioc throttle or retard timing (or both), chopping power until the wheels attain the same speed as the un-powered (rear, in this case) axle and, again in theory, regain traction. In fact, again, it's great for getting out of a driveway but burns brakes under extended use.
That's all I've got, I'm winded now.
What I referred to wasn't ESP (which is a stability program described accurately above) but EDL. EDL, or Electronic Differential Lock, is an add-on to the "traction control" program. It's based on an open diff or "one legger" where the wheel with the least resistance spins - only the ABS computer senses this spin and literally brakes that wheel - forcing power to the OTHER wheel which, in theory, has more traction. It works, but only to a point. It may get you out of Aunt Mary's snowed-in driveway, but in performance situations (or extended use as on a lo-ong snowy hill) it'll burn up brake pads & rotors and is not a good substitute for a "real" clutch, geared, or other mechanical limited slip differential.
BTW, Traction Control takes the EDL one step further in that if it tries the above and, if it then senses BOTH wheels spinning, (comparing their rotation to that of the non-powered rear wheels) it'll actually close the electronioc throttle or retard timing (or both), chopping power until the wheels attain the same speed as the un-powered (rear, in this case) axle and, again in theory, regain traction. In fact, again, it's great for getting out of a driveway but burns brakes under extended use.
That's all I've got, I'm winded now.
scapamouche
Member
blynzoo said:
Every single WRX autox driver I've talked to has mentioned how much the car pushes in its stock form. More WRXs are in modified classes than stock in the SCCA because the suspension can be improved so much with a little work.
Is the 337 electronic system like the ATTS in the Prelude SH? I've known a few people who have driven these and liked them... The only issue I've heard is that they can sometimes flake out and go nuts, and the only way to correct it is to reset the computer.
Having an non-independant suspension isn't all that bad. Look my car hangs with ITRs stock for stock, and I come very close to the handling of the MSPs.
Having a rigid chassis, thick strut bars, good shocks, good dampeners, matched springs, good rubber, and anti-roll bars will make much more diffrence with handling than a non ind vs a ind rear suspension.
Where independant suspension REALLY makes a huge diffrence is ride quality.
Sure the GTi is heavy...but so are M3s...The GTi has alot of aftermarket, it's enough to balance out everything else.
Tuners buy cars not for what they are stock, but what potential they carry. (just look at WRX owners, the car isn't that great stock for what I'd expect out of the price, but with realitivly little money it can be a monster)
Having a rigid chassis, thick strut bars, good shocks, good dampeners, matched springs, good rubber, and anti-roll bars will make much more diffrence with handling than a non ind vs a ind rear suspension.
Where independant suspension REALLY makes a huge diffrence is ride quality.
Sure the GTi is heavy...but so are M3s...The GTi has alot of aftermarket, it's enough to balance out everything else.
Tuners buy cars not for what they are stock, but what potential they carry. (just look at WRX owners, the car isn't that great stock for what I'd expect out of the price, but with realitivly little money it can be a monster)
daemos thanks for the comments.. i was just getting all hung up on some of the inferiorities of the car vs a wrx lol
20thae is definitely the car for me.. i went to the dealership to inquire about the order status of the vehicle and got the VIN and took the chance to sit in the 337 AGAIN for the umpteenth time. LOL and dang, i can't help but getting a wide grin on my face. hehe
20thae is definitely the car for me.. i went to the dealership to inquire about the order status of the vehicle and got the VIN and took the chance to sit in the 337 AGAIN for the umpteenth time. LOL and dang, i can't help but getting a wide grin on my face. hehe
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scapamouche
Member
Daemos said:
I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, but I doubt you will ever find a single autox driver who thinks the current SE-R has a snowballs chance against an ITR, driver ability notwithstanding...
I expect you'll find the same said about the MSP vs the SE-R once the MSP becomes more known as an autox car.
That said, I agree with your comments re Ind vs non-Ind suspensions and the effects of mods. In my experience, the biggest changes for FWD tend to be tires, then REAR swaybar.
Disclaimer: I'm largely talking from a autox viewpoint here, not open road...
