Suing the gun makers......again!

[70]

Btw... they can pull your phone records, library records, wiretap your phones or Internet connection, or a large number of other things just by saying it is to preven terrorism.

Do you register your car? Does the government make your fill out some paperwork to title it. Do they not let you drive if you have been proven yourself unworthy of the privilege? How should owning a gun be any different?

Why do you keep avoiding your own arguement?

 

[JDuncan]

kc5zom, how about this, I explained why I felt your "sane" solutions would not work.

Tell me why you think they would. Seriously. Do each one. I am trying to understand where you are coming from and I can't tell if you just like sparking debate, or if you actually believe in what you type.

 

[70]

That was the whole "different ballparks" statement. Actually, since the constitutional amendment is to have a well trained militia available then the government has a clear interest in knowing how many guns and who owns them. They could use those individuals and guns in a time of war to save our country from disaster. So really you are being unpatriotic by refusing to let the government know where its militia is and how well equipped it is.

Interesting arguement.

However, everyone should know that the "militia" is the National Guard. In which case your arguement is a mute point. The State already knows what weapons are in it's National Guard inventory.

 

[kc5zom]

You seem to have some misguided fantasy that all guns are made in the US and that US laws will change the number of guns available to criminals. I personally do live in the real world unlike yourself. I know how many cheap weapons are being made in countries overseas and how guns aren't any harder to smuggle than drugs. Criminals are your problem and if you destroyed every single gun that law abiding citizens had or could get, it still wouldn't change a single damn thing. You want more laws, but nothing that would have any effect. You yourself proclaim our laws as watered down but you don't propose a single damn thing that would make a difference.

Here is one I would sign off on. You kill someone, you die. You terminate someones life, by means of gun, knife, drunk driving, bare hands, whatever, then you too share the fate. If you want to see gun CRIME go away, then make penalties for CRIMINALS. Otherwise, quit wasting my time.

I guarantee I have MORE insight to this than you do, and that my short bus is feeled with a lot better people than the one you rode. So stop with YOUR BS, thanks.

I would love to hear your wonderful insight on this. Criminals in a good many cases had purchased a firearm legally to begin with since it is only illegal to purchase a firearm after certain types of criminal convictions. 40% of purchases every year are done privately and not subject to background checks. Make that illegal and the "law abiding" citizens will cut off a good deal of the supply of guns to criminals because they will know it is illegal to sell the gun to them and that they will be held responsible if they do so.

In New York City 65% of traced firearms had come from neighbor states that had relaxed gun laws. Virginia changed their laws and their traced numbers fell by 36%. The reason that gun laws in this country do not work is because of people like you who are feeding a culture of violence with ever more ammunition so you can protect your "rats" (say that in a slow southern drawl for me please).

 

[kc5zom]

Interesting arguement.

However, everyone should know that the "militia" is the National Guard. In which case your arguement is a mute point. The State already knows what weapons are in it's National Guard inventory.

If you contend that the National Guard is your militia, which I feel it is as well, then you as a private citizen have no reason or right to own firearms. The purpose behind the amendment has been fulfilled. For anyone, myself included, to challenge the wisdom in this interpretation by the Supreme Court is ludicrous. They know more about constitutional law than any of us will ever know.

I have work, going to bed, argue with you bastids in the morning.

 

[70]

If you contend that the National Guard is your militia, which I feel it is as well, then you as a private citizen have no reason or right to own firearms. The purpose behind the amendment has been fulfilled. For anyone, myself included, to challenge the wisdom in this interpretation by the Supreme Court is ludicrous. They know more about constitutional law than any of us will ever know.

Hook, line and sinker...

 

[JDuncan]

kc5zom, how about this, I explained why I felt your "sane" solutions would not work.

Tell me why you think they would. Seriously. Do each one. I am trying to understand where you are coming from and I can't tell if you just like sparking debate, or if you actually believe in what you type.

 

[JDuncan]

I would love to hear your wonderful insight on this. Criminals in a good many cases had purchased a firearm legally to begin with since it is only illegal to purchase a firearm after certain types of criminal convictions. 40% of purchases every year are done privately and not subject to background checks. Make that illegal and the "law abiding" citizens will cut off a good deal of the supply of guns to criminals because they will know it is illegal to sell the gun to them and that they will be held responsible if they do so.

In New York City 65% of traced firearms had come from neighbor states that had relaxed gun laws. Virginia changed their laws and their traced numbers fell by 36%. The reason that gun laws in this country do not work is because of people like you who are feeding a culture of violence with ever more ammunition so you can protect your "rats" (say that in a slow southern drawl for me please).

I literally grew up in the prison system. My father was a warden of the facilities here, and I was constantly around inmates (read criminals). I know first hand what their punishment is.

I have served as a deputy sheriff. I have sent people to prison. I have sent the same people to prison multiple times. I have seen common criminals who have been rehabilitated become murderers. I have seen the system and the way it works.

I have served as a EMT. I have treated gunshot victims. I have treated car wreck victims. You get a guess as to which I saw more often and which yielded more fatalities.

My insight to this debate is based off of my first hand knowledge in dealing with firearms. I have had them around me my entire life, and yet, I haven't killed anyone. That doesn't really make since as guns cause crime if you are right. It must just not be my time to snap.

Where do you get your insight into this debate? What leftist website tells you what to think?

I am not nor have I ever been a member of the NRA. I think for myself and I base my own conclusions off what I see. What have you seen that makes you believe you are right, or for that matter, better than me. You picked on the short bus statement over my avatar, a personal joke between me and my friends. You pick on my location in Kentucky, inferring that I am a slow dumb southerner. I wonder if you have anything besides personal attacks to back up your losing arguements.

 

[Mad Ryan]

I too have been around guns my whole life. I served in the Marines as an operator, where our loving government sent me all over the world to do "odd jobs" which those of you with similar experience will know all about. I am an expert rifleman and trained sniper, as well as an expert shot with a pistol. Since being honorably discharged I have continued to shoot competitively, and I have a Concealed Carry Permit. I have never shot anyone in an unsanctioned action. I'm in college now... It sucks...

The point here is that I agree with those that say that the mere presence of guns has no bearing on crime. I used to be around guns ALOT! I'm talking 10,000 rounds fired downrange per week some weeks and never a problem. I had 88,000 rounds through my glock, well over 200,000 rounds through my assorted .45's, and I have about 30,000 through the Sig Sauer P229 I have now.

I just really like to shoot. It's a good clean sport that teaches self control and dicipline. Carrying a gun for personal protection is something that's not to be taken lightly. You really should know what you're doing. That being said, I believe that the more people that carry legally (and safely) the better.

I would support stricter training for people before they could be issued permits. I think the same should be true for driving. I'm constantly amazed that the number of people that are killed on America's roads annually is many times higher than those killed by guns yet people act like guns are the root of all evil. Ban cars ferchrisake!

 

[loj68]

The pro-gun lobby is just a bunch of whiny bitches. Don't place restrictions on me because I am a law abiding person. Hey buddy, welcome to the ******* real world (and they all say they are law abiding). There are a lot of non-law abiding people. IF you punish them it is a disincentive for them not to commit that crime. If you were really a law abiding citizen then you would not mind registering your weapons because you would have nothing to hide. But you are stuck in your fantasy I want to rebel against the government world and think that guns, because of the 2nd amendment to make sure that this nation had resources to defend itself (ie a militia) when the regular army was weak, have this special little place and they should be subject to absolutely no regulation whatsoever. As to whether the laws in place prevent crime or not, nobody knows. Neither side has any ******* idea if they work in the United States, and if they tell you that they do they are full of s***. The gun laws we have right now are so watered down and useless that I doubt they have any effect at all.

First of all this is 100% your opinion and is not based upon any fact whatsoever. Secondly, you present quite possibly the weakest reasoning I've heard yet on this thread when you say "If you were really a law abiding citizen then you would not mind registering your weapons because you would have nothing to hide." That kind of thinking is tantamount to totalitarianism in it's purest form and it's ridiculous you even suggested it. Try and apply that logic to anything else and you'll see how incredibly stupid it sounds. We don't want to register our weapons because we shouldn't HAVE to......we are not criminals and should not have our LEGAL firearms purchases tracked and scrutinized by the government.

Stats = I made that up off of the NRA's website right? Just like the majority of fatalities are caused by the highly lethal .22 caliber bullet?

Oh, btw gloves = off. I'm sick of reading bulls*** on here.

Oooh boy...gloves off huh? Good, cuz the majority of the bulls*** so far is from you and your "big brother" opinions on how the government should persecute law abiding citizens in some flawed attempt to control crime. So, here's some info for you to chew on.........and I'll refrain from using NRA website stats just to prove a point.......your points can be easily muted using readily available stats from the government and other outside agencies:

--- 60% of guns used to commit crimes in the USA are either stolen or obtained illegally by a criminal (source: US Dept. of Treasury)

--- the CDC recently reviewed 51 different studies of gun control laws in the United States and they could find no proof that these laws were effective in curbing violence.

--- since 1976 when Washington DC put a gun ban in place the murder rate there has risen 134% while the national rate has fallen.......gun crim fell nearly 21% from 1989 to 1996 (source: FBI National Crime Statistics)

--- Gun crime is up 35% in Great Britain where guns are illegal (source: British Home Office for Internal Affairs)

--- Gun crime is up anywhere from 26% to 55% since they banned private gun ownership depending on what interpretation you read of the Austrailia Bureau of Statistics reports.

The fact remains that legal gun ownership should not be impeded because it is not where the problem of gun crime or gun violence is rooted.

 

[nmaino]

Quoted by loj68:

--- 60% of guns used to commit crimes in the USA are either stolen or obtained illegally by a criminal (source: US Dept. of Treasury)

--- the CDC recently reviewed 51 different studies of gun control laws in the United States and they could find no proof that these laws were effective in curbing violence.

--- since 1976 when Washington DC put a gun ban in place the murder rate there has risen 134% while the national rate has fallen.......gun crim fell nearly 21% from 1989 to 1996 (source: FBI National Crime Statistics)

--- Gun crime is up 35% in Great Britain where guns are illegal (source: British Home Office for Internal Affairs)

--- Gun crime is up anywhere from 26% to 55% since they banned private gun ownership depending on what interpretation you read of the Austrailia Bureau of Statistics reports.

This is fantastic. Hopefully these stats will cause people who do not like guns on this board to think before they post their biased, unbased anti-gun jargon. I'm sick of it and I think that many of the other board memebers are as well. It is time that you anti-gun individuals come to the conclusion that new gun laws do nothing to curb crime and they never will. I think this bumper sticker says it best:

"Guns kill people like a spoon made Rosie fat."

 

[pingdum]

Actually it does. It is a part of the arguement that supports the overall view.

Which, in this case, religion has nothing to do with gun control IMHO...

I think you are referring to a sidebar and not a side note, whatever, I know it had nothing to do with the subject at hand, I just find it interesting that a Christian would even own a gun. I never heard the expression "just shoot the other cheek"

 

[kc5zom]

Oooh boy...gloves off huh? Good, cuz the majority of the bulls*** so far is from you and your "big brother" opinions on how the government should persecute law abiding citizens in some flawed attempt to control crime. So, here's some info for you to chew on.........and I'll refrain from using NRA website stats just to prove a point.......your points can be easily muted using readily available stats from the government and other outside agencies:

--- 60% of guns used to commit crimes in the USA are either stolen or obtained illegally by a criminal (source: US Dept. of Treasury)

--- the CDC recently reviewed 51 different studies of gun control laws in the United States and they could find no proof that these laws were effective in curbing violence.

--- since 1976 when Washington DC put a gun ban in place the murder rate there has risen 134% while the national rate has fallen.......gun crim fell nearly 21% from 1989 to 1996 (source: FBI National Crime Statistics)

--- Gun crime is up 35% in Great Britain where guns are illegal (source: British Home Office for Internal Affairs)

--- Gun crime is up anywhere from 26% to 55% since they banned private gun ownership depending on what interpretation you read of the Austrailia Bureau of Statistics reports.

The fact remains that legal gun ownership should not be impeded because it is not where the problem of gun crime or gun violence is rooted.

Did you read the CDC report? They said they cannot prove that gun control had any effect. That is probably more because of the inconsistent laws across the United States, but nobody can prove anything. As to your other statistics, I will nail those half truths when I get home from work. It is a waste of my time, because you stole those off of gun lobby sites (which I have seen). But I'm going to do it anyway.

 

[pingdum]

All I know is I want one of these

 

[JDuncan]

kc5zom, until you tell me what first hand experience you base your beliefs on, I don't really care to hear any of your commentary. If I want to read the propaganda of the anti-gun lobby, I am competent enought to surf my web browser over to their sites for myself.

Concious thought is a great thing. You should try it sometime.

 

[70]

I think you are referring to a sidebar and not a side note, whatever, I know it had nothing to do with the subject at hand, I just find it interesting that a Christian would even own a gun. I never heard the expression "just shoot the other cheek"

Why is it interesting? How many wars have been carried out in the name of Christianity?

[disclaimer]
This is not an attack on the christian religion, just a question...
[/disclaimer]

 

[70]

All I know is I want one of these

That thing looks like a pain in the ass to deal with...

Why is it broken?

 

[loj68]

Did you read the CDC report? They said they cannot prove that gun control had any effect. That is probably more because of the inconsistent laws across the United States, but nobody can prove anything.

Of course I read the CDC report......that's my whole point, there is no proof that gun laws work. They studied 51 separate studies and what did they find? Nothing............

As to your other statistics, I will nail those half truths when I get home from work. It is a waste of my time, because you stole those off of gun lobby sites (which I have seen). But I'm going to do it anyway.

I don't know what a "gun lobby" site is but you're wrong. I got the data from news websites (CNN, MSN, BBC) and some of the other statistics I got from US Department of Justice website. I found TONS of it on some conservative think tank websites but didn't use it although it is really good info.

So, debunk any stats you like......it still boils down to the fact restricting legal gun ownership won't prevent gun crime. You need to go after the criminals which ISN'T us.

Also, an interesting stat I found is that suicide with firearms outnumbers homicide almost 3 to 1. They count those in the stats too.