Something to think about before installing intake

[Falconx84]

just to clarify the post as far as I am concerned -- I do not know who's cars they were nor do I know the dyno shop, method used, anything at all about them. I simply did a search for a dyno shop that tested a stock ms3 and an ms3 with only ms cai under fairly similar conditions

I was under the impression that it was a known fact that the MS3 cai DOES lean out the car. Not into dangerous levels, but definitely leans it out as compared to bone stock.

Keep in mind that the article posted was specifically directed to subarus. They are notorious for having all sorts of problems with a poorly manufactured intake. Not all cars are created equal. The only real time you have a problem (as far as MS3is concerned) with leaning out the system to a dangerous level is when you start adding more than just a cai and cbe. The current theory is that mazda pretty much expected owners to add a cai and cbe so they made the afr appropriately rich so as to not end up with problems

Subaru apparently expected owners to keep things pretty much stock, and the stock system works very well together. It's just when you start changing things that they have an issue with engine management. As far as the article is concerned, the subaru stock airbox has a fairly efficient design, esp as compared to the ms3 airbox. This is why they mention the airbox as one of the last items in a subaru-specific build. For an MS3 build, cobb recommends that the intake is one of the first items to change, as the factory box is very restrictive.

does this help clarify anything?

 

[StealthWyvern]

anyone else see that the dyno goes from 2300rpm to 3600 and back to 2800?

wtf is up with that? Kind of screws up the results

nice catch, but its even more messed up then you noticed. lol

2300 -- 3600 -- 2800 -- 3500

 

[Jays07MS3]

anyone else see that the dyno goes from 2300rpm to 3600 and back to 2800?

wtf is up with that? Kind of screws up the results

Ummm... yeah, I just mentioned it in the post right above yours.

nice catch, but its even more messed up then you noticed. lol

2300 -- 3600 -- 2800 -- 3500

Yeah, its just because he hit the throttle, let off and then punched the throttle again at 2800 RPM.

 

[Haltech]

I was under the impression that it was a known fact that the MS3 cai DOES lean out the car. Not into dangerous levels, but definitely leans it out as compared to bone stock.

.02 pts is hardly leaning out the AFR. If you want to lean out a MS3, remove both Cats inline from the downpipe on. The CAI is hardly making a lean condition even worth mentioning. I recorded .2 difference AFR once mine was installed.

 

[desperado-c]

The best CAI on the market for our cars at the moment without a doubt is the Mazdaspeed and INJEN who probably is the OEM CAI manufacturer for the speed3&6`s anyway....

What are you talking about? The Mazdaspeed for the 6 and 3 is made by AEM, right down to the DryFlow filter. This is the first time I've heard anyone rave about Injen, let alone suggest that they are the Mazdaspeed CAI's manufacturer. No amount of cutting and pasting BS from their online brochure can make them sound any good to me.

 

[rodney]

What are you talking about? The Mazdaspeed for the 6 and 3 is made by AEM, right down to the DryFlow filter. This is the first time I've heard anyone rave about Injen, let alone suggest that they are the Mazdaspeed CAI's manufacturer. No amount of cutting and pasting BS from their online brochure can make them sound any good to me.

bottom line Injen > AEM intake sorry to bust your bubble

 

[desperado-c]

bottom line Injen > AEM intake sorry to bust your bubble

Well, at least base your statement on something. For instance, my not being interested in Injen is based on their reputation for throwing CELs at the drop of a hat.

 

[rodney]

your the first i have heard of throwing a cel with injen, you must of not of installed it right or something, im not trying to dog on you or anything like that but if you have it with leaks anywhere before the mafs you will throw a cel but back on topic...its just my opinion only, you are all entitled to your own opinion i just stated mine

 

[dkswim]

our car uses a maf sensor and a widepand o2 sensor. im not confident beacuse i didnt weasure the sizes but CAI should be same size at maf sensor as stock box so the car should still be reading corect amount of flow. and car tries to maintain a/f.

 

[desperado-c]

your the first i have heard of throwing a cel with injen, you must of not of installed it right or something, im not trying to dog on you or anything like that but if you have it with leaks anywhere before the mafs you will throw a cel but back on topic...its just my opinion only, you are all entitled to your own opinion i just stated mine

I just asked you us what you based your opinion on. Sounds like you base it knowing some people with Injens who haven't had problems. That may be the case, but two good engineering firms (CPE and BEGI) have made money by cleaning up the messes Injen has made for some other people. CPE's intake is called the XCel meaning unlike Injen and some others, they test their intakes for CELs and won't release them until it don't throw CELs. BEGI had to add air straighteners to a few of their customers Injens to keep them from throwing CELs. That's what my opinion is based on.

 

[madeye moody]

dude it doesn't matter if you throw any intake on as long as there is no leaks its not gonna run unsafely from a intake and if you want it to run as good as possible then get it tuned, its not as big as deal as they make it and there was no need for them to get that detailed about a freakin intake lol thats just funny, dont get me wrong cobb makes some good stuff but to me that just sounds like there just tryin to push there product(short ram) to sell, i think most of that article was a bunch of BS

Well if the MAF sampling tube is changed to a different housing then it is going to read different than it did before due to the changes in airflow characteristics. It is entirely possible that it can read it leaner. Most OEM sensor have a housing and those are less sensitive to relocation though they can still have issues if mounted right after a bend in the tubing or similar changes from stock.
I'm a bit surprised that the MS3 intake is just a tube with a bolt in area for the MAF sensor. Crap, if that's all the science there is behind it then you can build your own intake and just retain the portion from the old intake tube that has the sensor mount and you'd likely be BETTER off. I'll have to look at the stock intake closer and see if it can be removed, maf sensors and pipe removed as a unit and reused. In that case I can route my own intake pipe and call it a day.

 

[madeye moody]

Well i can tell you from a wideband readout that mine didnt change more than .2 pts before and after... My MS CAI did increase the volume of air, cooler air at that, into my engine, instead of having to suck through a straw which gave me loads of more power and efficiency.

Ive never seen an intake lean out it on my truck or mustangs in the past either. SO umm, yeah... Whatever. Perhaps in the import arena, companies get away with making bad products that do this, but on the domestic side of things, i havent had any issues.

This must go back to Cobbs reasoning of sucking in hot engine air through their Short Ram Intake and trying to convince consumers theres no difference in hp increased opposed to a CAI... Whatever it takes to sell their products i guess.

On several of my vehicles, ive relocated the MAF into the fender well. Again, no lean conditions or tuning issues. So as far as im concerned, this is total horseshit. It doesnt matter if you move your MAF up or downstream, the air is still being metered.

What people need to consider is the quality of the actual replacement MAF tube. If the sensor ( hot/cold wire ) is relocated into a non factory MAF thats improperly designed, youre going to have a shitload of problems. The sample tubes need to be dead on as these are used for proper calibration to your injectors.

As long as a company designed the MAF housing correctly, youre not going to have any problems. I dont think mazda was willing to sell a CAI manf'd by AEM if it wasnt designed properly and causing the cars to lean out. An airflow straightener would help these cars out because of the volume of air the intake side of the turbo brings in. On a Naturally Aspirated car, this isnt an issue.

Take what you want from the article but i find that this doesnt apply to us, the Mazda community.

Amen! I think you are spot on for the most part though it is a bit weird that MAZDA would use an AEM pipe without at least a mesh screen to diffuse the air. I might look into that myself.

 

[desperado-c]

Well if the MAF sampling tube is changed to a different housing then it is going to read different than it did before due to the changes in airflow characteristics. It is entirely possible that it can read it leaner. Most OEM sensor have a housing and those are less sensitive to relocation though they can still have issues if mounted right after a bend in the tubing or similar changes from stock.
I'm a bit surprised that the MS3 intake is just a tube with a bolt in area for the MAF sensor. Crap, if that's all the science there is behind it then you can build your own intake and just retain the portion from the old intake tube that has the sensor mount and you'd likely be BETTER off. ....

Yeah, I was just thinking about how the MAF is just stuck into the stock box like that while all the aftermarket intake makers had to develop a housing. As far as your other posting on the lack of a straightener in the AEM/MS intake, maybe you could incorporate the stock straightener into your mod? Let us know what you come up with.

 

[madeye moody]

Yeah, I'll look at it today and see. I didn't really think all these high dollar intakes would "leave it to chance" but with all the people reporting codes popping on with aftermarket intakes, and running leaner on the MS3 intake then it makes me wonder if we can't do a better job of opening up the potential while still preserving the stock metering precision....if one can call it precise.

 

[dkswim]

ill have to see if i can find it but sport compact car the magazine was going over some of this info on maf sensors. The Q was about a miata but we use the same set up give or take size. I'll see if i can pull up the info and if soo I'll try and post it for you'll

 

[BCMSP3]

From everything I have learned both from research online and from speaking with a Cobb engineer, I have the most confidence in the Cobb intake. The MAF housing is the same size as stock and the velocity stack takes care of turbulence. I was told by Cobb that from their testing the A/F ratio remains the same as stock and boost increases very slightly due to less air flow restriction. On a customer car, peak boost went from 13.4 - 14.9 psi. Apparently, the customer had the MS intake as well so they ran a couple tests on it and found that the A/F leaned out a bit and boost increased a bit more. The product has undergone a lot of testing and I have confidence in Cobb. Just my two bits.

 

[Haltech]

From everything I have learned both from research online and from speaking with a Cobb engineer, I have the most confidence in the Cobb intake. The MAF housing is the same size as stock and the velocity stack takes care of turbulence. I was told by Cobb that from their testing the A/F ratio remains the same as stock and boost increases very slightly due to less air flow restriction. On a customer car, peak boost went from 13.4 - 14.9 psi. Apparently, the customer had the MS intake as well so they ran a couple tests on it and found that the A/F leaned out a bit and boost increased a bit more. The product has undergone a lot of testing and I have confidence in Cobb. Just my two bits.

Those tests need to be thrown out. Youre taking a Cobb short ram, on a dyno, hood up and comparing it to a longer cai with the filter at the bottom of the bumper. This isnt a true comparison whatsoever. ill take a CPE product over Cobbs anyday. When a tuner tries to convince you that a short ram intake is the way to go because it doesnt get in the way of their front mount intercooler, you need to consider the reasoning behind it. I dont see CPE throwing a short ram down my throat and for good reason. Their CAI has airflow straighteners and works with a front mount, Nuff said. Cobb may be gods in the Suburu world, but im not buying their bulls*** on the Mazda side of things. Logic supercedes sub-standard engineering.

 

[laloosh]

Those tests need to be thrown out. Youre taking a Cobb short ram, on a dyno, hood up and comparing it to a longer cai with the filter at the bottom of the bumper. This isnt a true comparison whatsoever. ill take a CPE product over Cobbs anyday. When a tuner tries to convince you that a short ram intake is the way to go because it doesnt get in the way of their front mount intercooler, you need to consider the reasoning behind it. I dont see CPE throwing a short ram down my throat and for good reason. Their CAI has airflow straighteners and works with a front mount, Nuff said. Cobb may be gods in the Suburu world, but im not buying their bulls*** on the Mazda side of things. Logic supercedes sub-standard engineering.

AMEN

 

[BCMSP3]

Those tests need to be thrown out. Youre taking a Cobb short ram, on a dyno, hood up and comparing it to a longer cai with the filter at the bottom of the bumper. This isnt a true comparison whatsoever. ill take a CPE product over Cobbs anyday. When a tuner tries to convince you that a short ram intake is the way to go because it doesnt get in the way of their front mount intercooler, you need to consider the reasoning behind it. I dont see CPE throwing a short ram down my throat and for good reason. Their CAI has airflow straighteners and works with a front mount, Nuff said. Cobb may be gods in the Suburu world, but im not buying their bulls*** on the Mazda side of things. Logic supercedes sub-standard engineering.

That's cool, just a differing opinion I guess. I asked them about the front mount and they said that the MS intake will work fine with it. Also, the post-intercooler air temps were the same with both the Cobb intake and the MS. Pre-intercooler they found that air temps were obviously a bit higher with the Cobb intake, however that disappeared at 30 mph. I have lots of STi friends who swear by Cobb, so I guess my views may be swayed. I do, however, have a lot of confidence in their engineering. I don't think they would be willing to throw their reputation away to sell a few MS3 intakes. Either way, I think most of the products out there for this car are solid; it comes to personal preference in the end.

 

[rodney]

Well if the MAF sampling tube is changed to a different housing then it is going to read different than it did before due to the changes in airflow characteristics. It is entirely possible that it can read it leaner. Most OEM sensor have a housing and those are less sensitive to relocation though they can still have issues if mounted right after a bend in the tubing or similar changes from stock.
I'm a bit surprised that the MS3 intake is just a tube with a bolt in area for the MAF sensor. Crap, if that's all the science there is behind it then you can build your own intake and just retain the portion from the old intake tube that has the sensor mount and you'd likely be BETTER off. I'll have to look at the stock intake closer and see if it can be removed, maf sensors and pipe removed as a unit and reused. In that case I can route my own intake pipe and call it a day.

just get it tunned and you won't have a problem at all and if you cant pay to get it tunned then dont get a intake or you can get one and not get it tunned its not a big deal ppl lol