Possibilities going N/A

[twilightprotege]

darin, i was just waiting for you to predict what power my mods will make because you appear to be a big skeptic of na cars and mods. you came into this thread and just started calling BS on everyone's claims. fair enough proof is good to have, but just calling BS because people dont have proof...hmmmmmmm

and i quote from your first post in this thread...."we just talked about this...a couple weeks ago. There is no way to make decent power NA - without spending $10,000 or MORE...even then, we are talking 30-50hp improvement, max."

we'll see.....

 

[twilightprotege]

ok boys and girls, my new cams are in my hand.....here are the specs

lift (intake and exhaust) 0.351

duration @
.010" 273deg
.020" 250deg
.050" 226deg
.100" 199deg
.200" 147deg
.300" 83deg

cams will be installed this coming saturday...will let you know the results.

 

[Installshield 2]

sounds good...Not sure of the numbers off hand, but they seem pretty big...I am assuming emission tests are not an issue, meaning you don't have to have "sniffer" tests in Australia?

 

[p5sundevil]

sorry for being a n ub for technical numbers but exactly how much(relatively not exactly i guess) more agressive are those cams than say mazdaspeed or Jspec(I know Jspec are almost as weak as ours).

Btw, how much did it end up costing for the grind job?

edit: also Im very jealous, this is one of the 3-4 big things I want to do to my car including headwork, downpipe or header and maybe an intake manifold and I am eager to see ur results. GL

 

[twilightprotege]

yeah it's a case of emissions tests? what emission tests? every now and then you see them, but they only pull over older cars. i have never ever seen a car less than 10 years old pulled over.

just to compair to stock numbers
intake is 198deg of duration @0.050" and has 0.341" of lift
exhaust is 200deg @0.050" and has 0.323" of lift

so what i'm getting is a huge (in terms of cam profiles) increase over stock. i'll definately loose some power down low, but will have a large increase up high - i'm guessing atleast 15whp. ofcourse as soon as i've run the cams in and dyno'd them i'll be scanning the sheet and posting it here asap. i'm looking forward to it

the jspec intake is slightly more than stock intake, exhaust is the same.

the grinding ended up costing me $280aud - that's about $185usd going on today's exchange rate.

 

[1sty]

I have seen a few claims made here that I did not see backed up.

1. was the claim of a 130 whp for less then $1000. Please elaberate with mods and dynos for th esame car, base lined then with the mods.

2. NA is a viable option to turbo as for cost. Spoolins Stage 1 system will do over 150 whp and for less then $2600, can anyone best that with an NA motor and less money into it? Again dynos are needed here.

 

[Installshield 2]

Yeah I read up on those numbers real quickly...Your gains will be nuts for the price you paid!!...You did your homework didn't you? The duration is significantly longer than stock AND the J-spec cams...and the combination of Aussie cars having a higher static compression ratio will hopefully make up for the intake valves closing even later A-BDC, thus "bleeding off" compression into the intake port...If I confused anyone, higher compression is needed becuase with these cams the intake valves are opened LONGER once the piston starts to squeeze the fuel and air...so some of the fuel and air is pushed back up into the head...

FWIW these are probably too agressive for us North American men, so people going with custom cams with a compression ratio of 9.2:1 should probably look into a little less duration profile...The Aussies are one step ahead by having a higher compression ratio already...And this is an excellent cam profile for running an extremely high compression ratio safely, so Twilight if you decide to raise the compression further, you probably won't have to worry about new cams...

I am still researching the rest of the numbers, I can't find all of my notes on the stock cams right now...

 

[twilightprotege]

yes - lots and lots and lots of homework very happy with what i've been able to do there. for sure - our 9.7:1 compression will definately help out. i'm so very interested in what gains i get from just swapping the cams will be with no exhaust mods at all. just dont forget what i paid you need to add on the cost of blank cams as well...

i guess i'm really lucky to have one of australia's top cam grinders in my city. all he does is cams, nothing else...his factory is huge (i counted 26 machines this morning when i was there). i had numerous talks to the guy (his father started the business 40 something years ago) about what i want now and what i want to do in the future.

1st - i cant confirm any claims i have made yet. i have a base dyno (a few mods) of 103.5whp. i will dyno after the cams have been installed (if valve clearance is ok ofcourse). this time next month i'll have a ported head as well. i will also dyno after that.

 

[1sty]

1st - i cant confirm any claims i have made yet. i have a base dyno (a few mods) of 103.5whp. i will dyno after the cams have been installed (if valve clearance is ok ofcourse). this time next month i'll have a ported head as well. i will also dyno after that.

Cool, sounds like a plan.

 

[twilightprotege]

just so you know what i'm doing for head mods - port and polish cylinder head, face valves and stone seats (3 angle valve seat job), match port manifold, and machining the head to increase the compression ratio to 10.0:1. i've been quoted $750aud for this work - that's about $500usd

 

[p5sundevil]

for 500 usd that is alot of work, especially if it same quality as yours cams.

I dont know how the cost breakdown is for that but would it be more worth it to not machine the heads and get Jspec or custom pistons, cause I heard the Jspec compression was over 10:1....yup just checked corksport and they are 10.4:1 for 180 a set. Wonder how that compares to machining in price breakdown


I would like to do a port and polish as well as some valve work, no machining, if I do want to raise compression Ill use an E6K(or the like) or Ill get Jspec pistons....maybe.

A question though, was there something in particular that made you decide to do the cams now and the headwork later, like one should be done before the other, or is it personal preference?

 

[Installshield 2]

I have seen a few claims made here that I did not see backed up.

1. was the claim of a 130 whp for less then $1000. Please elaberate with mods and dynos for th esame car, base lined then with the mods.

I think I made that claim...

I am fully aware that it is very difficult to make an unbiased, persuasive argument without adequate proof...I have no proof...the only thing I can provide is a compilation of various mods made by different owners who actually did get their car dyno'd...but again nobody has that I know of has acutally dyno'd their car with all of the mods I have listed together...so you have to piece all the gains together more or less...

alright so we know that a certain Pclub girl recieved roughly ~23whp from simply a modified bosal header (flange bolt diameters, it was from a Probe SE and would not fit a P5 without these dimensions being changed...nothing was modified to increase performance or anything tricky), a J-spec ZE intake cam, and MSP sport 20 exhuast cam...that brought her numbers to right about 121whp...The price was $180 for the intake cam, the exhuast was $130, and the header was from a different car...So expect to pay between $300 and $500 yourself...assuming you go with a cheaper header you have only spent $610 to gain about 20whp...next buy a GOOD diamter exhuast for a mild NA build up...The Racing Beat would be my first choice (60mm in diameter, about 2.375", perfect for marrying to basic botl-ons)...so that is another $400...(this could be achieved also with a cheaper custom mandrel bent, non-stainless exhuast system also), Most Pclub members that dyno'd with just that exhuast gained as much as 7whp, but bare in mind that the combination of defeating the stock down-pipes restrictions will allow the exhuast pulse rate to flow much more efficiently and quickly, and the increase diamter of the Racing Beat exhuast will give even more gains....so put shortly the combination of a header and the RB will make the RB give even higher gains than if done alone...with any money left over you could build a custom intake with a universal K&N cone filter...I am not going to get into progressive intake diamters and specs in this right now, but if you do a lot of research you can build a short-ram out of parts from Lowes that could give you as much as 5whp for $80...You don't have to do the intake to get to 130whp...that would probably push you over 130whp a bit, but for $910 you can have 130whp (maybe 128whp, maybe 133whp, maybe 131whp etc...varies from car to car)...You can play around with those prices too...If you want the $500 AWR header, then go with a custom non-stainless exhuast at roughly 60-65mm diameter...gains will probably be similar between all the long tube headers though...

 

[twilightprotege]

sundevil, i dont want to change the pistons just yet because down the track i will be turboing the car. everything i am doing now to my car is aimed towards turbo.

i was actually planning on doing cams and head at the same time, but i have spread them out by a month so my credit card is happy and also it will give me the opportunity to run in the cams so they are nice and ready for head work - also, if valve clearance is slightly more than what it should be, the place where i'm getting the head work done can make new valve shims to make the clearance perfect.

i'm hoping after cams and headwork, i'll be getting close to 130whp.....it's funny because i'm trying to do that without touching the exhaust except for a gutted pre-cat

 

[accuser]

i don't like debating about what makes more power... so here is the solution to all your problems... build up your motor N/A (mild stuff... cams [with a big lift], port out the head and intake manifold.... lightened fly wheel and a nice stage 3 clutch... shouldn't cost much... around $1800) throw on a thick copper head gasket and the www.hiboost.com turbo kit ($3995.00) this kit is intercooled... and has everything you need... BOV wastegate manifold oil lines.... you can bsicaly bold this bad boy on... now you've spent under $6000 and you've got yourself about 250whp and a protege that looks so stock... but with that little hint of intercooler that all the honda heads sweat... yes that's right... we've built a sleeper for under 6 grand... assuming you are doing the work yourself... (oh... and don't run more then 7lbs of boost... i heard the internals on this motor are very frail... )

 

[DooMer_MP3]

So what would be good custom cam specs for us U.S. men? . Obviously this isn't an easy question to answer, but I suppose we can derive them from what twilightprotege has come up with for his slightly higher compression.

The thing I worry about are the stock valves and float. We shall see. Twilight, you have no idea how much I look forward to your install/dyno .

1st MP3 In NH,
Yes, we don't have any proof just yet, but I think it'll be coming soon. I don't know what I want to do just yet. The thing is I have no money, so everything is on hold until next spring. Spool's new stage 1 looks so damn sweet. But I need to do the P5 ECU swap, and a new clutch.

Otherwise I'll do a header and custom cams next spring. I already have an intake. Exhaust will depend on the header. If I go Racing Mazda, I think the MP3 axle back will suit me fine since that header eliminates both cats. If I do OBX (if they really become available) I'd probably do a Bosal or Magnaflow exhaust.

So:
AEM Intake - $160
RM Header (no exhaust) ~ $380
OBX Header and exhaust - $200 + $400 = $600
Custom cams ~ $400 (blanks + grind)

I should be able to install this all by myself or help of a friend.

So for $940 (RM header) or $1160 (OBX Header and exhaust) I really think I will see 30whp easily based on what I've seen here lately. If peoples' dynos suck, well then they suck and our arguments suck and we're a bunch of damn idiots. It'll be hard to decide though. I got blown by by a WRX the other day and that thing sounded mean .

Chris

 

[freekwonder]

mainly for twilightprotege, but i had a question about the valve train. Im looking at getting rid of my j-spec cams and getting some definetly hotter ones. but what is the most lift/duration the stock valvetrain can handle? and what about shims? i know somebody sells the fs-ze valvetrain is it any different from the fs-de valvetrain?

 

[Installshield 2]

from what I remember the ZE and DE heads are exactly the same other than the cams...

Doomer, the stock springs should keep float at bay even with pretty aggressive cams...The 1.47 con ratio of an FS will never allow it to rev high enough to make valve float too much of a problem...

 

[twilightprotege]

doomer, i would say a suitable cam with your lower stock compression in the lines if what i have is about 5deg of duration less at 0.050"...that would give maybe 7deg less at 0.010", hardly anything at 0.300". lift is good. ofcourse you can go for what i've got, but you wont beable to take full advantage of the cams. by the way, i'm really looking forward to the dyno too i'll make sure i take heaps and heaps of piccies of what i'm doing and i'll try and do a how to

freekwonder, i personally wouldnt go any more than 0.360" of lift on stock springs. they can probably handle more than that, but at high rpm i'm sure you'll start to get a very small amount of valve float because the springs arent stiff enough to follow the cam back into place. valve float is certainly something i dont want. shims can handle whatever the hell you wanna do...all they are good for is adjusting the clearance between the cam and the tappet

installshield i'm pretty sure you're right about the ze and de heads. once i have overhauled the fs and bored the engine out by 3mm....9000rpm with a new ecu and nice lightweight internals will be no problems...that's when i'll be getting new valve springs, but while us aussie p5's are limited to 6500rpm, i'll have no issues.

 

[mp3moose]

I just want to subscribe to this thread.
moose

 

[Installshield 2]

installshield i'm pretty sure you're right about the ze and de heads. once i have overhauled the fs and bored the engine out by 3mm....9000rpm with a new ecu and nice lightweight internals will be no problems...that's when i'll be getting new valve springs, but while us aussie p5's are limited to 6500rpm, i'll have no issues.

You are kidding about the 9,000 rpm redline right, meaning that is not realistically your goal? This may be redundant, but an FS has a rod ratio of 1.47 so to put things short there is absolutely no way with the stock bottom end will tolerate speeds from about 7500 rpm and up...When I finally do have a standalone (or even better if AEM releases a EMS plug and play system for FS's) I will set the fuel cut at probably no higher than 7400rpm...Also all the head work and the biggest cams will still not allow an engine with that ratio to breathe at those rpms...The rod ratio creates very little piston "dwell" BDC and TDC and it is always scavaging for air and fuel at high speed...This is the main reason your cams are so perfect...our rod ratio requires longer duration and overlap, with a nice bump in compression in order to breathe on an "acceptable" level...

Now if you are fronting the cash to have a custom crank forged with more rev happy rod ratio's and a full engine balance, I stand corrected...I was just reffering to the stock internals, anything is possible if you have the money...but this is the reason why the World Challenge Protege's engines are so expensive...takes a lot of cash to get them to rev high...