Possibilities going N/A

[Darin]

ok again u are not reading everything, it was not 30whp just from the regrind, and im not talking about grinding to Jspec specs, I am talking about a little more aggressive that will still keep the power band broad and not push it all the way up. Also inclided in the 33whp gain was a good port and polish job on the heads which does lossen alot of hp on some cars.

Cams and Headwork =30hp = :bs:

why would i show you how to bore a head, i read that that tea did it and had no reason to disbelieve them since the article was in Sportcompactcar and their specs have all been checked by the SCCA. And yes their particular car was 210whp with a redline of 8 grand so it was a 5-7grand engine, but that also enables them to lossen more power in the future still without going forced induction, as race engines should be.

I'm saying show me a GUY who spent LESS Than it'd cost to turbo the car for the same results. Show me a guy who spent less than $5000 for 50whp.

the only reason I believe NA is safer than boost is cause of the basic funtions of a turbo, it forces pressure and heat back into the engine. NA doesnt do this, it actually increase flow and increase the cool air going into the system. yes an intercooler setup helps this but Im talking about those starter systems of 4-5psi that run with an FMIC.

You are comparing apples to oranges. a 4-5psi turbo on a Protege = about 150whp. Those kits can be had for a couple thousand dollars. Show me a 150whp Protege with $2000 in Naturally Aspirated mods. Anytime you create more power, you create more heat.

also to make sure you are getting these maximum gains that I am so unrealistically talking about your engine has to be tuned very nicely to make suure you ahve everything running to its full potential, better pistons with a slightly raised compression can help this but that is only a small part of the tuning.

And is it 'free' to tune? What is there to tune?

I dont mind if u dont believe me, I was trying to help the person that originally asked the question in the first post to give him an idea of what some people are doing NA. and what is possible even if some dont Think so. skeptic or asshoel its not what u say its how u say it, but im tired and have a headache thats been around for 5 days so I might be an asshole too right now.

Just present accurate information. In order for this guy to get his Protege to even 150whp he'd need at least several thousand dollars in cams, port/polish work, Flow Bench time, labor, ECU work, New, higher compression pistons, valve springs, and fuel upgrades. Several thousands of dollars.

Or, he can buy a simple off-the-shelf turbo system.

See?

 

[Darin]

ok for those that care I am rereading the article in SCC about roger Foo's p5, ill listwhat they did....

-custom aluminum log style intake manifold
-engine is blueprinted and has enough of the heads and block to bring compression to 13:1(using new forged pistons)
-they didnt align bore the block since it is nice at factory setting, they left stock crank bolts but massaged the crank and webs to ensure oil flow
crossdrilled and slotted holes in crank to ensure enough oil flow at new rpm(redline-9500)
-new oil cooler
-crank fillets are rolled and shot peened for durablity.
-forged rods
-new valves(SS)
-most imprtant part=100's of hours of flow work on the heads, tuning to increase flow and better temps.
-port and polish(.75 inches from set, 1inch from flange)
-custom intake and exhaust system as well as custom cams(big pwr boost here)
-new valvetrain components and well as mazdaspeed lifter buckets which is what increase the rpm limiter.
quote
"It's puting out excess of 225hp @ 7800rpm, the way it's currently set up. But more is coming."

yes it is a 5grand engine but they have done half of what they can to it and are already at 225hp.

$5,000 in PARTS alone - probably MORE. Labor rates are anywhere from $50-80/hr across the country. You can read that list and think that it's somehow easier or safer to build up NA??? Wasn't Hi-Boost showing a ~$5,000 turbo system with 250whp/300ft-lbs???

 

[boostisgood]

easiest way to sum it up. It will cost you upwards of 6-7k to get an NA motor to a respecable 225whp.

Sorry bro, its a nice idea, and would work, if you had the money, and time. Also, those engines in the SCCA Pro's need rebuilt every 3-4 races. They go through 3 prebuilts a season. Watch Speed channel, and they mention every race Foo Man runs in.

 

[p5sundevil]

actually accordinf to them the tranies is all they go through because they are left stock and not built up, it seems pretty obvious to me as much as they did in pwr gain mods they did in mods to make the engine able to handle it.

4-5psi for 150whp ur talking 2k to 2600. for that amount of money i will almost definately be able to make 150whp also.

as for the money it is all about hookups,. most people wouldnt have headwork done to their cars unless they were either racing or had a hookup to do it so the cost/gain ratio isnt totally whack.

We will just have to see, the reason u havent seen people doing it NA is because it is easier to buy a turbo KIT that straps on and gives the same results. Once the car ghas had a while for those people who want NA gains only to have had time to build up their cars we will see who is doing what with what parts and labor.

since there aren;t people like that yet we will have to wait to see.

 

[boostisgood]

Actually, there is an army green civic here doing low 12's on street tires, and mid 11's on slicks. ALL MOTOR. He works for a shop, and does all his own work, so there is his hookup. He has dopped about 3-4k for parts though. It is also a b-18c5 outta of teg typer-r. So he was pretty close to 160 whp right out of the box.

 

[Darin]

4-5psi for 150whp ur talking 2k to 2600. for that amount of money i will almost definately be able to make 150whp also.

Never happen. You'd be lucky to spend $2500 and get to 140whp. Lucky. Chances are, you'd hover around the 130 mark.

HiBoost claims 200+WHP for $3500. (shrug).

 

[p5sundevil]

b18c5 engines stock should be making 200-210hp N/A stock.

I believe it is the other b18 engine, the b maybe that makes 160 at the wheels, that is one from the GSR i think.

never happen, maybe not, but ill have fun trying and if it does happen Ill just be proud of it. I plan on running boost eventually anyway but I wanted to make 150-160whp before hand with some built up internals. I really dont care what ur opinion is at this point cause u seem to be making assumptions off of nothing.

and thats 3500 before install, gauges, and all the little things like electronic controllers to safely maintain that stuff.

plus I am basing this off of continued deals I have been getting, 2.5" cat back exhaust system for 140, the header is next and my custom CAI was 45 with the extra brackets and work I did to make it run exactly like the injen.

 

[Installshield 2]

Never happen. You'd be lucky to spend $2500 and get to 140whp. Lucky. Chances are, you'd hover around the 130 mark.

HiBoost claims 200+WHP for $3500. (shrug).

Phantom Cruiser, a member of the Pclub, gained ~25whp with J-spec cams and a header (125.8whp/131 Lb/ft of torque) ...less than $600 in parts, and her boyfriend did the work...

This has been beaten to death...With a new E6X, 10.5:1 compression, j-spec cams (to keep the costs down), and a header...I will put money down you will be right at 150whp for about $1800 if you can do everything yourself...The ECU makes up more than 60% of that cost, and you could raise the compression to more like 11.2:1, more agressive custom cams, intake and 2.75" diameter cat-back and be looking at more like 175whp NA...after that an FS will not rev enough to make more power...but the latter will still be no more than $2500 in parts...

FWIW, those Speed Car's engines are so expensive becuase they are pretty much the only people to do it...Lots of custom work and trial and error...A lot of the internals are forged, which IS expensive, but if they were readily available parts (such as on most Honda engines) they wouldn't be paying $17,000 per engine...

 

[p5sundevil]

darin is just gonna come back with some remarks to try to prove u wrong with his opinion.

im done here with going back and forth it is a nvr ending discusion.
I plan on doing all the mods myself pretty much, I will just wait and see what my work does for me in the end.

 

[Darin]

I really dont care what ur opinion is at this point cause u seem to be making assumptions off of nothing.

Exactly right. Nothing. You have NOTHING which supports your claims that's it's JUST as cost-effective, and SAFER to build a motor Naturally Aspirated, dollar for HP. I'm saying you have NOTHING to support that. If that bothers you, show me.

 

[Darin]

Phantom Cruiser, a member of the Pclub, gained ~25whp with J-spec cams and a header (125.8whp/131 Lb/ft of torque) ...less than $600 in parts, and her boyfriend did the work...

What were the conditions of the dyno? State of tune of the car? Any other mods? which dyno? Same dyno before and after?

Thanks! That's 'data'...that's something I can understand - NOT this kid shouting about "they" and "people" and "I know a guy" or whatever...

 

[p5sundevil]

so because i knew the person who had the data but didnt have it at the time myself that is automatic reason to disbelieve someone?

good job being a pesimist, life must suck for u.

 

[uclap5]

tempers flaring.

calm downs the both of ya's. you've got different opinions. just respect each others opinions.

just prove the naysayers wrong sundevil and it will be the end of the discussion.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

haha i love darin...he has my attitude..but with the knowledge to back it up..go darin its yo birfday..he is right though..so dont triffle

 

[twilightprotege]

so darin, how much do you think i'll get increase in whp to my engine if i do the following from what i have now....

1) custom cams - 264deg@0.006", 222@0.050", 0.365" of lift for both intake and exhaust cams, and
2) headwork - Port and polish cylinder head, Face valves and stone seats, Match port manifold, and Machining the head to increase the compression ratio to 10.0:1 (aussie cars have 9.7:1 as standard), and CC head ... this head work is going to cost me $800aud - about $520usd

i'd be very interested to see what increase you think i'll get from the cams alone, then the cams and headwork...

 

[Installshield 2]

What were the conditions of the dyno? State of tune of the car? Any other mods? which dyno? Same dyno before and after?

Thanks! That's 'data'...that's something I can understand - NOT this kid shouting about "they" and "people" and "I know a guy" or whatever...

I am not positive on all of the conditions, she did post them at one point, but searching on that board these days does not return much...Her completely stock pull showed 100.3whp/108.5lb/ft of torque...from what I remember she lived in North Carolina and these were posted the day after the pull (last spring, and these were in a pdf format for download and they seemed legitimate when compared to other stock FS pulls)...So assume high humidity and roughly sea-level elevation...According to her, the car was completely stock for the first run, and then did another pull the same day with a universal Magno-flow muffler (which returned no significant increases in power)...She then had a Bosal header retro-fitted from a 93-97 Probe SE, and J-spec intake cam (stock ZE cam) and MSP exhuast cam installed. These were the mods that returned the 125.8whp etc...I am just like you, it takes credible evidence to convince me on any mod...

She said the car had roughly 7,000 miles on it when the mods were performed...Sorry man that is the only info I have on that car...

Also I wasn't trying to be a dick in my earlier post, I was in the middle of homework and was really pissed off...So I am sorry about that...

For some reason it seems like a lot of car tuners tend to favor one form of tuning (FI or NA), and argue relentlessly about which is safer, which is "better", and which is cheaper...There is no arguing with Darin on this...To get MAXIMUM power there is no cheaper way than Turbocharging...but some people are not looking for maximum power...A lot are looking for the best hp/$$ ratio which is by far Nitous...also some of us are looking for instant response and no lag (such as me)...If you know your way around an FS, some decent gains can be made for relatively cheaply with NA mods...You will never make an FS as powerful as even HiBoost's mild kit while remaining NA, and you shouldn't even consider tying to reach their 13lb kit...If you want decent power and excellent response combine the two...I have mentioned this a lot, but a stand alone ecu with a High compression low boost setup will yeild a NA feel with great torque and power (when compared to a fully NA FS)...

Both tuned NA engines and trubo'd engines can be reliable, and both can be very unreliable...It's the tuning, so which is safer depends on how you go about organizing your setup and the decisions you make...Sorry for this annoying s***, but the fighting gets redundant and does not help anything...

In short, an FS is a decent startingpoint for NA.. decent, not great...Overall it is more likely that it is a better starting point for a turbo...But in my opinion it has some potential, it is just ridiculously strangled by North America's needs for low end torque (for those of you sitting in the slow seat, that is why your 2.0L revs like a thermostat)..Install the J-spec cams, get rid of the stock downpipe and get a decent intake and you will have about 28whp extra...We finally have proof of that...

 

[twilightprotege]

very well put installsheild....

 

[Installshield 2]

Thanks man...

 

[5speedP5]

Installshield-Very well put, imo
twighlight, im intrested to see how everything goes with your engine

Overall i cant believe the overwhelming response of this thread... stupid protegeclub would have never had this much discussion. But anyways, darin especially, im not looking at cost to hp, im looking at reliabilitiy in the sake of not going turbo (yea turbo can be reliable, my other car is going to be, but the FS is too weak imo stockish). Im just looking to make a good % more power than stock with out going turbo, maybe even a little nitrous later. If i could get this car into the mid 14s with out a turbo i would be happy. And i believe it is possible now, with a header and a good set of cams and some headwork i believe it can be done.

 

[twilightprotege]

yeah that's why i've always stayed on this thread. it's almost entirely 3rd gen related and there are a lot of other well informed people floating around...

anyway, i'm sure you could get mid 14's w/o turbo

still waiting to hear what darin reckons my hp run will yield after cams, and cams and headwork