Poll: Is there an Afterlife?

[Rickman]

I'm an engineer as well...

First of all there is no way I can make you believe, nor will I really try. I can only say that you need to explain things for yourself... There is far too much in the world that doesn't fit with out conventional explanations... here are a few examples

1) Why if advanced thought and self awareness is such a massive evolutionary advantage as is proved by our human expansion, did no other creature develop it? Almost all other evolutionary advantages are expressed in multiple species, yet the most significant of all advantages is only expressed once in one form... why?

2) Water is less available than many other substances in the ground and air as a whole (and even more rare in the early formative years of the earth)... yet water is the initial medium of evolution and with the exception of some theories about sulfur bacteria etc. Water is also the only substance in the natural world that becomes less dense when transitioning to a solid, thus causing large bodies of water and the like to never freeze solid and thus further facilitated throughout ice ages and many varied circumstances for life to continue to evolve or grow and not be destroyed or terminated (no way to pursue food/energy when immobilized, etc.) So why is water different? Or if you prefer, why is water the basis (it is responsible for conveying nearly every chemical reaction in life forms and chemical transport etc) of life on the earth?

3) Where did the big bang come from, what material, why, how, where did the energy come from?

4) Why do so many people and cultures with NO interaction to one another to some degree or another at such a consistent level come to the conclusion and develop elaborate ritual and belief to a supreme being? Are humans hard-wired to do so? If so why?

5) With all the variation and differences of life and organisms and the mechanisms involved do all forms of life carry DNA structure based on the same chemical chaining helixes? Why not other ways of carrying the same genetic material? Why not 10,000 different types of "data storage" for life forms? Certainly has been enough time to develop.

I can keep listing stuff, but you maybe see my point... while you MAY be able to explain each one individually, explaining all of them together only has one rough explanation - something of intelligence or constructive power likely drove all of the above. And before you try to argue away the intelligence/constructive power, explain the 5 points above... confirm those issues rather than immediately attacking the result that they would yield in theory.

I'm no scientist or engineer, only a lowly graphic designer who watches too much TV. SO my answers may be wrong and I may make an idiot of myself.

1.) It's all trial and error then keep doing what works, there were other species that had self awareness, it didn't work out in the end. And furthermore it's only a matter of time before we wipe ourselves out anyhow.

2.) Water Rare? Maybe you should check your figures on that. And maybe water is the basis of life BECAUE of it's unique properties.

3.) Nobody really knows for sure, so why would I? What's more is that there are other theroies besides the big bang.

4.) This takes us back to humanity, with all it's self awareness, being weak-minded. Myself included. Almost all creatures have two eyes, two nostrils, one mouth and two ears, what does that mean? And as far as I knew NO grouping of humans formed in complete isolation, as some point there was interaction with other peoples and civilizations branched off all over the world.

5.) Back to the idea of "do what works" who's to say there wasn't ever another way of conveying genetic info? Not you or I. And who's to say that DNA is the only way? It is the only way WE know of. who is to say that we've even figured out everything about anything? All it will take is for someone to look at it differently and convince other people they are right, then you got yourself a new religion (if we go based on religion being a set of beliefs... as you put it.) about how there are nanoscopic aliens that control our genetic structure.

 

[TurfBurn]

Saying "Here's a wild expaination and I dare you to disprove it." or "Well, let's hear you come up with a better idea." is not the way science works. Scientific theory is based on observations first. Not by coming up with an idea and then challenging others to refute it.

Well that's again exactly my point... why is that so hard to see? I gave you five observations... I asked you to develop and give me your own theory or prove that they aren't related observations.

On the flip side, it IS the rule that an established theory has to be disproven by observations and evidence for it to be refuted... I would call the religious belief in a supreme being an established theory accepted among many... so you as an opponent to it by the scientific method obligated to provide a counter theory based on a given set of evidence that is said to support and puport the theory you oppose.

So thanks for agreeing with me .

 

[TurfBurn]

1.) It's all trial and error then keep doing what works, there were other species that had self awareness, it didn't work out in the end. And furthermore it's only a matter of time before we wipe ourselves out anyhow.

It (self awareness/intelligince/tools etc) is a proven advantage though and enables us to accomplish things as a community and as individuals that enables us to survive even though physically and genetically we are very very weak species. A VERY weak species of another sort with the same sort of awareness would have/should have survived, but no evidence of any sort exits in any way.

2.) Water Rare? Maybe you should check your figures on that. And maybe water is the basis of life BECAUE of it's unique properties.

Not as a whole for the earth, no not by any means. but on land there are far easier substances to get a hold of (certain minerals, amounts of carbon, etc... ) it takes great means in general for animals and humans to acquire the water they need to live... why not just need dirt instead? And then as faras BECAUSE of it's unique properties... which came first chicken or egg?

3.) Nobody really knows for sure, so why would I?

So because nobody "knows" it doesn't matter or need explanation?

4.) This takes us back to humanity, with all it's self awareness, being weak-minded. Myself included. Almost all creatures have two eyes, two nostrils, one mouth and two ears, what does that mean? And as far as I knew NO grouping of humans formed in complete isolation, as some point there was interaction with other peoples and civilizations branched off all over the world.

Almost all animals have those things? Spiders and others have many more eyes, many don't have ears really, some don't have any mouths etc...

The point was that before some of those groups interacted (American Indians is a great example) they had similar views... American Indians believed in a Great Spirit and the like when Europeans came. Here was a society of people that predates social communities (earlier humans that came on to North America were hunter gather family units, not large tribes typically, and not with settlements, which helps rule out pre-determined major social constructs that could inferred throughout a vast non-communicative population) yet they had a Great Spirit much like the Chrisitan God.... Similarily tribes of Africa, and even pygmy nations in Australis had similar views... all VERY isolated... and that is a cognitive creation, not a need for survival (as you point out you survive just fine without believing that).

5.) Back to the idea of "do what works" who's to say there wasn't ever another way of conveying genetic info? Not you or I. And who's to say that DNA is the only way? It is the only way WE know of. who is to say that we've even figured out everything about anything? All it will take is for someone to look at it differently and convince other people they are right, then you got yourself a new religion (if we go based on religion being a set of beliefs... as you put it.) about how there are nanoscopic aliens that control our genetic structure.

Find another defineable life form that doesn't carry some form of remedial genetic structure in it... I'm all for nanoscopic aliens controlling our genetic structure... but we don't have any evidence of it, inferred or otherwise at this point... and nano-scopic genetic controlling aliens doesn't help explain any of the other points.

 

[pingdum]

Well that's again exactly my point... why is that so hard to see? I gave you five observations... I asked you to develop and give me your own theory or prove that they aren't related observations.

On the flip side, it IS the rule that an established theory has to be disproven by observations and evidence for it to be refuted... I would call the religious belief in a supreme being an established theory accepted among many... so you as an opponent to it by the scientific method obligated to provide a counter theory based on a given set of evidence that is said to support and puport the theory you oppose.

So thanks for agreeing with me .

Your logic is frightening. The existence of God is not a theory, but an idea or concept. Nobody saw a progression of things in nature and thought "The next logical step in this progression is some guy with a beard sitting on a big chair in the clouds." In fact God and religion was created to explain the things that didn't have logic, hence the necessity of faith.


faith
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
4. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
5. A set of principles or beliefs.

 

[TurfBurn]

Your logic is frightening. The existence of God is not a theory, but an idea or concept. Nobody saw a progression of things in nature and thought "The next logical step in this progression is some guy with a beard sitting on a big chair in the clouds." In fact God and religion was created to explain the things that didn't have logic, hence the necessity of faith.


faith
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
4. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
5. A set of principles or beliefs.

Again, not correct:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976
His conclusions are based on logical proof based on scientific discoveries and analysis..

Additionally, without specific viable explanation for any of the 5 questions posed previously, and considering that their general contact is fact, therefore explanation thereof can proceed to logical proof of a theory. Similarily in science, various theories are derived from the same data set, and then those theories are evaluated against additional means until one theory or another is determined to have the best ability to withstand falsification.. so so far we have nanotech aliens, pure chance, "God", and the Flying Spaghetti Monster as theories. All valid conclusions based on the given proof set... evaluation of which theory is better would require further cross examination of the theories against evidence to determine which one withstands falsification further...

Is my logic scary because you aren't following??

I love how anyone who disbelieves in God maintains it is "some guy in the sky", "old man with a beard in a chair" or any other ridiculous assumption as to what the general religious public holds for a belief about what God appears as.. the general judeo-Christian belief in fact indicates based on biblical record that god has no body, no substance, but rather is "heard" as a voice from various naturalistic situations (flaming bush, clouds, lightning, wind, etc...) in no way shape or form.

So put down the Atheist handbook to Theist belittlement and discuss on an actual level of respect. I have not belittled or made fun of you or your belief in any way... but continual little potshots like the man in the clouds and a spaghetti monster (which is an obvious renaming of God to poke fun at the Judeo-Christian views) are the acts of 8th graders without argumentative sense.

 

[Rickman]

I still contend that this universe a place of infinite possibility, creating some "reason" for the unanswered questions of the world is most of humanities way of coping with it the uncertainties of life. Why does there have to be a reason?

All I'm saying is that I don't need a reason why I'm here. I just am. I'll live the best I can while I am, as for what's after that who knows?

The answer you are seeking is: 42

 

[TurfBurn]

I still contend that this universe a place of infinite possibility, creating some "reason" for the unanswered questions of the world is most of humanities way of coping with it the uncertainties of life. Why does there have to be a reason?

All I'm saying is that I don't need a reason why I'm here. I just am. I'll live the best I can while I am, as for what's after that who knows?

The answer you are seeking is: 42

42! Awesome! LOL.. that movie was quite entertaining...

Searching for a "reason" or understandig of such things is the same as why do we have to find reasons as to why the sky is blue, and why gravity works, and why string theory may hold true and various other things... I agree the universe is one of infinite possibility... but we already know the universe itself is finite to some extent... so why is it finite? What mechanisms drove the creation of this universe... those are simply reasons we seek... theories are made, theories are destroyed...

 

[Rickman]

42! Awesome! LOL.. that movie was quite entertaining...

Searching for a "reason" or understandig of such things is the same as why do we have to find reasons as to why the sky is blue, and why gravity works, and why string theory may hold true and various other things... I agree the universe is one of infinite possibility... but we already know the universe itself is finite to some extent... so why is it finite? What mechanisms drove the creation of this universe... those are simply reasons we seek... theories are made, theories are destroyed...

How do we know that the universe is finite? It is not proven to be finite or infinite as of yet. Again we delve into speculation and theory. Do we have some new technology that allows us to see the the restaurant that the end of the universe? If it is indeed finite, then what is beyond it?

 

[pingdum]

But the Christians do believe that God sent "His" son to earth, and that Man is created in God's image. You can't believe in a Christian God and not believe all the other clap-trap.


"Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife. "
The story you referenced gives you no quarter, one scientist suddenlly at 81 saying "Maybe somesort of God exists is hardly solid scientific proof.

 

[TurfBurn]

How do we know that the universe is finite? It is not proven to be finite or infinite as of yet. Again we delve into speculation and theory. Do we have some new technology that allows us to see the the restaurant that the end of the universe? If it is indeed finite, then what is beyond it?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1008_031008_finiteuniverse.html

Exactly... you can always take things to another level... I never disagreed... if God exists... why does He exist... was He created? Other there others like him that oversee other universes??? who oversees them?

 

[TurfBurn]

But the Christians do believe that God sent "His" son to earth, and that Man is created in God's image. You can't believe in a Christian God and not believe all the other clap-trap.


"Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife. "
The story you referenced gives you no quarter, one scientist suddenlly at 81 saying "Maybe somesort of God exists is hardly solid scientific proof.

Yes... he sent "His" son to earth... and man is created in God's image... but when that means according to many Christian philosophers is that our knowledge, self awareness, etc are the image of God... not our appearances... Jesus was a human but with the spirit/existance of God in his being... thus Jesus while a man was also God as his spirit/being/knowledge/self-awareness. But bringing up these points has no merit whatesoever if you do not accept that God exists in the first place... If you deny that God exists then of course, Jesus, etc are not valid items. So trying to use them to disprove or prove God would mandate that God existed in the first place, or that you accept the premise of God.

I was not saying that that article in any way PROVED that God exists... my point was that an educated individual CAN in fact come to a logical, scientific conclusion that God exists... it does not mean that just because someone concludes it that it is true. You said that it couldn't be a scientific theory in any way, my point was illustrating that it CAN be a scientific theory... similar to global warming. There are scientists and people all over the world that believe without question that global warming exists.. there also considerable numbers of scientists and people that maintain that it does not exist and is only a natural part of the earth's own cycle. Both are theories that are valid based on evidence and scientific though... both are counter to one another, and both have followers thereof. No different than you believing the premise that no God exists... and me believing a premis that he does exist.

 

[pingdum]

If you want to spread the concept of God so thin to include any kind of force that could create the universe and therefore people, with or without any specific purpose, then there is no arguing as reality does exist and it had to get here someway. But if you want to answer the question "Is there an afterlife" in the context of all the human religions and concepts of God. Then you have to accept a big guy sitting in a chair, or an elephant with 8 arms , or a fat guy sitting under a tree, or a guy with a flying chariot pulling the sun through the sky, or talking trees, etc..........

 

[TurfBurn]

If you want to spread the concept of God so thin to include any kind of force that could create the universe and therefore people, with or without any specific purpose, then there is no arguing as reality does exist and it had to get here someway. But if you want to answer the question "Is there an afterlife" in the context of all the human religions and concepts of God. Then you have to accept a big guy sitting in a chair, or an elephant with 8 arms , or a fat guy sitting under a tree, or a guy with a flying chariot pulling the sun through the sky, or talking trees, etc..........

Well given that reality has to get here somehow someway... then yes we can call it "flubergaster" or whatever madeup word or version of Pasta we want.... religious people call it their respective deity... agnostics and atheists simply call it "unkown"

You are correct, the concept of afterlife is a religious context, and you do have to then accept some versioning and detailed description of God or life force or karma etc... The Christian God, however, while artistically pictured as an old man etc... is not understood by Christians to be as such in any way. There is no "image" that is the Christian God... there are images that represent the human form that the spiritual incarnation of God was in Jesus Christ, but God as one of the trinity has no defined form... if anything clouds, or bright light are the typical imagery associated if anything... but He is not described as having any specific body... Zeus on the other hand... all ripped old dude all the way .

 

[Rickman]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1008_031008_finiteuniverse.html

Exactly... you can always take things to another level... I never disagreed... if God exists... why does He exist... was He created? Other there others like him that oversee other universes??? who oversees them?

also directly from the article

Weeks cautions that his team's model of a finite, dodecahedral-shaped universe, while promising, is hardly a proven theory. "There's more work to be done, he said. "It could be affirmed, or it could be refuted."

Like I said. Speculation... based on perception. And don't even get me started on perception.

 

[TurfBurn]

also directly from the article



Like I said. Speculation... based on perception. And don't even get me started on perception.

True, but they do have scientific evidence and have formulated a theory... it is not a PROVEN theory, but it is one nonetheless... I can thoerize the universe is a big squiggly worm poop too if i want! But I can't prove it... and that's what they have to do... keep in mind that a "scientific theory" and a scientific "theory" are different... anyone can have a "theory" based on science etc, but for it to be a "scientific theory" it actually has to follow a formalized process that even includes publishing still I believe before it can be an official theory recognized by the scientific community... they certainly have a working theory, but it is by no means approved at this point as a legitimate one by the scientific community.

At the least though, it does point that it is more LIKELY to be finite than infinite based on the fact that they are getting reflections of the radiation etc.

 

[pingdum]

Yes... he sent "His" son to earth... and man is created in God's image... but when that means according to many Christian philosophers is that our knowledge, self awareness, etc are the image of God... not our appearances... Jesus was a human but with the spirit/existance of God in his being... thus Jesus while a man was also God as his spirit/being/knowledge/self-awareness. But bringing up these points has no merit whatesoever if you do not accept that God exists in the first place... If you deny that God exists then of course, Jesus, etc are not valid items. So trying to use them to disprove or prove God would mandate that God existed in the first place, or that you accept the premise of God.

I was not saying that that article in any way PROVED that God exists... my point was that an educated individual CAN in fact come to a logical, scientific conclusion that God exists... it does not mean that just because someone concludes it that it is true. You said that it couldn't be a scientific theory in any way, my point was illustrating that it CAN be a scientific theory... similar to global warming. There are scientists and people all over the world that believe without question that global warming exists.. there also considerable numbers of scientists and people that maintain that it does not exist and is only a natural part of the earth's own cycle. Both are theories that are valid based on evidence and scientific though... both are counter to one another, and both have followers thereof. No different than you believing the premise that no God exists... and me believing a premis that he does exist.

But you do have to accept the fact that he created these two people out of mud and gave them free will only to trick them into using it and therefore punishing them for the rest of eternity until he sent his son down to keep everyone from using the free will he gave them so they wouldn't get tortured and burned for the rest of eternity, etc.............

and educated logical individuals have been agreeing with religion since the begining of time, they're just humans searching for answers that don't exist like the rest of us.

 

[pingdum]

but for it to be a "scientific theory" it actually has to follow a formalized process that even includes publishing still I believe before it can be an official theory recognized by the scientific community...

Like Evolution?

 

[Killer]

I'm an engineer as well...

First of all there is no way I can make you believe, nor will I really try. I can only say that you need to explain things for yourself... There is far too much in the world that doesn't fit with out conventional explanations... here are a few examples

1) Why if advanced thought and self awareness is such a massive evolutionary advantage as is proved by our human expansion, did no other creature develop it? Almost all other evolutionary advantages are expressed in multiple species, yet the most significant of all advantages is only expressed once in one form... why?

Like everything else in evolution, survival of the fittest. There have been many rendidtions of mankind through the years..Homo Sapiens was the strongest and survived.

2) Water is less available than many other substances in the ground and air as a whole (and even more rare in the early formative years of the earth)... yet water is the initial medium of evolution and with the exception of some theories about sulfur bacteria etc. Water is also the only substance in the natural world that becomes less dense when transitioning to a solid, thus causing large bodies of water and the like to never freeze solid and thus further facilitated throughout ice ages and many varied circumstances for life to continue to evolve or grow and not be destroyed or terminated (no way to pursue food/energy when immobilized, etc.) So why is water different? Or if you prefer, why is water the basis (it is responsible for conveying nearly every chemical reaction in life forms and chemical transport etc) of life on the earth?

For some reason our planet had a different atmosphere than some of the others (That we know about) and water came with the package. I am not strong enough in this study to give you any other answer on that.

3) Where did the big bang come from, what material, why, how, where did the energy come from?

"Big Bang" is a THEORY. The universe is infinate, I doubt mankind will ever know the whole reason/story.

4) Why do so many people and cultures with NO interaction to one another to some degree or another at such a consistent level come to the conclusion and develop elaborate ritual and belief to a supreme being? Are humans hard-wired to do so? If so why?

Some yes, some no. I guess that is why pretty much my whole life I thought it was a bag of tricks so to speak. I truly believe man invented god and religion to control man before modern governments and laws were put in place.

5) With all the variation and differences of life and organisms and the mechanisms involved do all forms of life carry DNA structure based on the same chemical chaining helixes? Why not other ways of carrying the same genetic material? Why not 10,000 different types of "data storage" for life forms? Certainly has been enough time to develop.

Again, natural growth and evolution of a species.

I can keep listing stuff, but you maybe see my point... while you MAY be able to explain each one individually, explaining all of them together only has one rough explanation - something of intelligence or constructive power likely drove all of the above. And before you try to argue away the intelligence/constructive power, explain the 5 points above... confirm those issues rather than immediately attacking the result that they would yield in theory.

Hey, whatever floats your boat. I'm just not buying it.

 

[TurfBurn]

But you do have to accept the fact that he created these two people out of mud and gave them free will only to trick them into using it and therefore punishing them for the rest of eternity until he sent his son down to keep everyone from using the free will he gave them so they wouldn't get tortured and burned for the rest of eternity, etc.............

and educated logical individuals have been agreeing with religion since the begining of time, they're just humans searching for answers that don't exist like the rest of us.

Why are you arguing this at all? You can't unless you are accepting the premise that God exists in the first place.. if you then accept that he does then you can argue His actions and human interpretaton of them.

Second of all... since there is plenty of evidence of evolution it obviously is not the case that Adam and Eve just "popped up" out of nowhere... but Adam and Eve could be representative of the first human beings instilled with the self awareness and cognitive ability that sets us apart from apes and others based on our current knowledge. How do you suddenly figure that God "tricked them" into using free will to punish them for eternity? It is also arguable that the story from a Christian standpoint is reflecitive of the "evil" that man has the ability to do contrary to God's desire and is represented by that "first choice" contrary to God's desire for us. But again... if you don't accept or acknowledget hat God even exists in the first place discussion of what this non-existant being (per your view) does or doesn't do or me is completely circular and foolish. You are using your doubt of the judeo-christian stories and traditions and teachings to validate your disbelief of God. You are disproving something by arguing against something you already say can't exist in the first place.

Not all faiths and people maintain to the bible as an exact literal tradition... So trying to refute things further by going there is foolish because it is a false premise to start with. You give me reason to believe that you are not an active and studied Christian, therefore your understanding of teachings and philosophies of different religious groups is going to be quite far removed from actuality. Even people that are active christians are often not fully aware of the doctrines of their faith... much like not every driver on the road knows everything that is right or wrong or how it works (just go watch a 4 way stop sign for a few minutes and it's quite obvious) but it doesn't change that they are a driver....

 

[TurfBurn]

Like Evolution?

Yes LOL... Keep in mind that Intelligent Design believers do not in any way refute evolution, nor do I. They simply believe the evolution was influenced, started, planned, etc by a supreme being or intelligent designer. so they fully accept the theory and it by no means excludes or rails against the concept of God in any way.