Placebo effect or reality

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So after reading about the new CX 9 makes more horsepower using 91 verses 87 octane fuel, I decided to put 89 in my CX5 for 2 full tank fills and it did feel more responsive than normal. My question is, if the 2.5 CX 9 engine was designed this way wouldn't all off of their vehicles attain similar results? Only difference is the new CX 9 is turbocharged. This is not meant to be about wasting money buying higher octane gas, but rather if Mazda specifically programmed the CX 9 engine to function this way, has anyone else tried or proved that it works for all their sky active engines. Placebo effect or reality?
 
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So after reading about the new Miata makes more horsepower using 91 verses 87 octane fuel, I decided to put 89 in my CX5 for 2 full tank fills and it did feel more responsive than normal. My question is, if the 2.0 Miata engine was designed this way wouldn't all off of their vehicles attain similar results? This is not meant to be about wasting money buying higher octane gas, but rather if Mazda specifically programmed the Miata engine to function this way, has anyone else tried or proved that it works for all their sky active engines. Placebo effect or reality?

Placebo.
The 2011+ Mustang GT makes about 12-15hp more going from 87 to 91 octane. That is a 4-valve 5.0L V8 making around 400hp on any fuel. Your sub 200hp vehicle is likely not going to benefit nearly as much, and so I would ask this...can you tell the difference in 1/2 a tank and a full tank of gas? If not, then placebo. If legitimately so, then maybe not placebo.
 
Lol...Probably should look up what "advance timing" is and actually does. You can find plenty of technical articles that are probably over most of our heads but the basic information should be glean able by the non engine technical person. It's not just about "oh I'm putting 93 in my car; did I gain 10hp?".. It may be in some cases, but it's mainly about getting the most power from the combustion cycle. Again it's one of those things that depends on your car, and how far it can advance timing. Our car can adjust timing on the fly. A 1990 Miata cannot. On that car the timing is physically set (and once advanced you run super until you manually adjust it back). On our car I can run super one tank and regular the next and the ECU will adjust automatically. So far I have logged 50.5 consistently max advance so I'm guessing that's the practical limit.

Here is one article about timing advance. This one pertains to a Mazda, and to something that is pretty much a go to adjustment for the Miata. You can find plenty of other articles as well.
http://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S10_Timing.html
 
The 91 octane performs better than the 87 octane in my Mazda. Can I prove it with some scientific test? No. But my Mazda seems to be more responsive and peppier, plus I do not have any detonation with the 91 octane as I did with the 87 octane when climbing a steep grade under load. It's just my opinion. It's well worth the $1.50 per tank fill up.

The 2.5L has the highest compression ratio at 13.0:1 and running premium just gives me a peace of mind. I ran 87 octane in my Mazda and when climbing a hill under load I did hear some detonation in my Mazda and the computer definitely cut timing and the car lost some HP but the detonation stopped.

In my Vette I must run 91 octane to avoid detonation even though the compression ratio is less than the Mazda at 10.7:1 - Like the Mazda, the Vette will pull timing once the engine pings when running < 91 octane

Once you are over 10.5:1 compression then 89-91 octane must be used. Once over 11.0:1 then 91 octane is mandatory. I do understand the Mazda uses special headers and timing software to prevent detonation but for me it's just a peace of mind.

Do a test yourself. Put in 87 octane and take the CX5 up a 7% grade with 2 or more people inside. Make sure the radio is off so you can hear the engine. The detonation occurs but it's quick and fast because the computer will pull timing once the knock sensors signal the ECM. Most people will not even notice/hear it but if you are a gear head and worked on cars for a few years and you know what to listen for, you can hear it.
 
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So after reading about the new Miata makes more horsepower using 91 verses 87 octane fuel, I decided to put 89 in my CX5 for 2 full tank fills and it did feel more responsive than normal.

There are four possible explanations, one of which is the placebo effect. Here's the other three:

1) The 87 octane fuel is under spec. Unless you or another entity sends the 87 octane to a lab for octane testing, it could be under spec. There is at least one oil industry person on this forum that swears up/down this is not possible but his view is not supported by the results of random spot checks for proper octane that is performed by various states department of weights measures.

2) The fuel meets the minimum octane spec but it achieves it with more than 10% ethanol. This will lower the amount of energy embodied in a gallon of fuel. Again, random sampling by various agencies around the country shows this does happen occasionally.

3) It's possible that the higher octane fuel you used could have less than 10% ethanol, especially now with oil trading under $30/barrel. It takes more oil to make higher octane fuel without adding ethanol but with oil at record low prices I imagine refineries may be adjusting the processes used to achieve the various octane. If so, the higher grades could have lower ethanol content than 87 octane. But, it could also go the other way. There is no legal requirement that fuel sellers (wholesale or retail) disclose the actual amount of ethanol (other than to say it may be as high as 10%).

Before doing this kind of seat of the pants comparison, it's important to fill up with the tank as empty as possible. I recommend driving at least until your trip computer reports "0 miles until empty". And, for the reasons alluded to above, just because it performs better for one or two tanks of a different octane, doesn't mean it will continue to do so. Refineries have a number of tools up their sleeves to achieve their goal of creating a standardized product that meets the required specifications but, even though it generally meets those minimum specifications, it's not always the same stuff. Sometimes it exceeds a minimum spec by a bigger margin and sometimes it meets the minimum spec using refining/blending techniques that result in a superior product (more embodied energy would be one example).

Yes, it's complicated. As a consumer you don't have access to the details. But if you find a fuel that seems to work better, keep filling up at that station, with that same fuel. But don't make the blanket statement that it runs better on all 89 octane unless you do extensive testing at a number of different stations and, at each station, you can always tell the difference between the two octanes. For reasons outlined above, and the fact that the North American CX-5 is designed to not detonate on 87 octane, that's very unlikely. Yes, it adjusts various parameters (including ignition and injection timing) on the fly to avoid detonation but it should never adjust these parameter past that point (even if you put 100 octane in there). The detonation sensor is merely a failsafe that will kick in if the fuel is under spec or some component (like an oxygen or MAF sensor) is providing faulty values.
 
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Well, here's a true story. My associated with CX5 is just +2 months now. Now, before the purchase I exhaustively tried other cars as I don't go by looks but by pure feel of how the car drives. To prove this, I rented a Porche Macan and BMW X5 both of which were way beyond my budget but to get a feel of how they drive in comparison. Now, both of these take premium. Both of these - my spouse drove too. In comes CX5 which I drove exclusively. Then spouse drove for a week, then me. I felt the car accelerating a wee bit faster and felt a wee bit quieter. The issue I had was when in SPORTS mode, felt as it it'll go a wheelie.. LOL.

Anyways over a glass of wine I ask my wife about it and one thing led to other and she said that she ASSUMED CX5 will take only premium as she put premium in X5 and Macan as I had requested her too. Told her they are all the same category so she assumed it'll take only premium.

Is it placebo? No. I was blind about it. But felt the difference. Change in gas? No. Came ol' Costco gas. I do feel my wallet so putting in 87 octane but personally I felt premium gas made it a little better....

At the same time - I myself don't feel its scientific. At least 3 full tanks are required. I also feel the weather swinging from hot to extreme cold might have some effect. I don't think its prudent to declare premium makes a difference. More exhaustive drivers and drives are required to confirm.

BTW: MPG in either case was +/- .5
 
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Yes, it adjusts various parameters (including ignition and injection timing) on the fly to avoid detonation but it should never adjust these parameter past that point (even if you put 100 octane in there). The detonation sensor is merely a failsafe that will kick in if the fuel is under spec or some component (like an oxygen or MAF sensor) is providing faulty values.

I agree 100% that the North American SkyACTIV engine will NEVER* put out MORE factory rated HP (185HP - 185 LBS.FT) with 93+ octane gas BUT it can always put out LESS than the factory rated HP if it has bad fuel/low octane and the computer senses knock. Timing will be pulled therefore reducing the factory peak HP levels.

The CX5 SkyACTIV engines in other parts of the world actually have higher horse power and torque #'s:

" SKYACTIV-G engines for the U.S. market have a lower compression ratio of 13:1 allowing them to operate on standard instead of premium fuel with an approximate 3-5 percent reduction in torque and fuel economy "

The CX5 in Europe with the 2.5L Gasoline engine (running 91+ octane) makes 210 LBS.FT of torque

* Outside of an aftermarket tune that changes the parameters of the programming.
 
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I agree 100% that the North American SkyACTIV engine will NEVER* put out MORE factory rated HP (185HP - 185 LBS.FT) with 93+ octane gas BUT it can always put out LESS than the factory rated HP if it has bad fuel/low octane and the computer senses knock. Timing will be pulled therefore reducing the factory peak HP levels.

The CX5 SkyACTIV engines in other parts of the world actually have higher horse power and torque #'s:

" SKYACTIV-G engines for the U.S. market have a lower compression ratio of 13:1 allowing them to operate on standard instead of premium fuel with an approximate 3-5 percent reduction in torque and fuel economy "

The CX5 in Europe with the 2.5L Gasoline engine (running 91+ octane) makes 210 LBS.FT of torque

* Outside of an aftermarket tune that changes the parameters of the programming.

Could someone simply order a European ECU and swap ?


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there is ZERO doubt in my mind that the 2.0L with the 6MT is definitely happier with premium gas.

With 87 octane there are times when the engine seems to hesitate during WOT acceleration. It doesn't do it often, but sometimes the car just feels slower than it usually is and the torque delivery seems sort of intermittent from say 4000-6000RPM. Almost like there are a few small dips in the torque curve. By comparison, with 91 octane it just feels like there is a smooth wave of torque pulling the car all the way to redline. The car runs excellent on 87 octane when the air is cool, but when it's hot out it's happier with premium.

The manual asks for 87 or above octane. Premium is usually 20c/gallon extra here, but I have seen it only 15c extra sometimes. 95% of the time I go with regular, but when it's hot and I want to enjoy my cx-5 as much as possible I'll spend the extra $2.50 and go with premium.

The same applies to low RPM. At my old apartment there was a fairly steep driveway. With premium gas the engine was perfectly happy climbing this driveway in 2nd gear, with regular gas, the engine did not sound happy doing this and required an awkward downshift into 1st.
 
The CX5 in Europe with the 2.5L Gasoline engine (running 91+ octane) makes 210 LBS.FT of torque

I think you messed up your conversion.
The 2.5L in Eeurope which has 13:1 compression just like the US version makes 189 ft-lb
 
there is ZERO doubt in my mind that the 2.0L with the 6MT is definitely happier with premium gas.

With 87 octane there are times when the engine seems to hesitate during WOT acceleration. It doesn't do it often, but sometimes the car just feels slower than it usually is and the torque delivery seems sort of intermittent from say 4000-6000RPM. Almost like there are a few small dips in the torque curve. By comparison, with 91 octane it just feels like there is a smooth wave of torque pulling the car all the way to redline. The car runs excellent on 87 octane when the air is cool, but when it's hot out it's happier with premium.

The manual asks for 87 or above octane. Premium is usually 20c/gallon extra here, but I have seen it only 15c extra sometimes. 95% of the time I go with regular, but when it's hot and I want to enjoy my cx-5 as much as possible I'll spend the extra $2.50 and go with premium.

The same applies to low RPM. At my old apartment there was a fairly steep driveway. With premium gas the engine was perfectly happy climbing this driveway in 2nd gear, with regular gas, the engine did not sound happy doing this and required an awkward downshift into 1st.

Peter is correct in his observations as I have had the same observations.

I experienced quick but noticeable detonation when climbing a grade under load with the 87 octane. Took that same grade with 91 octane and it never skipped a beat.
 
Some have 14:1 ratio for octane 91


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only the 2.0 and smaller engines have 14:1
The 2.5L is 13:1 all around the world, but it makes a peak 189lb-ft of torque at 4000RPM vs 185 at 3250 for the US version.
I wonder how much torque the US version makes at 4000RPM anyway? 180? 175? definitely less than 185.
 
The only reason I put premium in my CX-5 is after winter when I need to deplete my premium fuel stocks that are used in my snowmobiles. I usually empty them out and fog the motors for the off season. Steering more to just using more Stabil though.

My Infiniti requires Premium or you feel like it is detuned 25%.
 
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I have the 2.0 manual. On a couple of hills around here it started pining. I was at 2000 rpm in 6th then down shifted to 5th, heard the pinging again and went down to 4th. I am not sure if the pinging is normal valve noise, but it sure doesn't sound like the engine likes it. I will try 91 on my next tank.
 
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