NA, FI, etc

[Diomedes]

Looking for BASIC general information on how those relate to m3s. I know very little about those forms of upgrades and even if i'm interested in doing them to my car. I plan to read about them and understand them with time, but for now i need to know if i should even consider them. How much does it cost? Can i get someone to do it for me? Do i NEED to do it myself? What will be the price difference? What actual performance differences are there? How will the engine sound? If it's manual transmission, it's a decent idea? If i'm so intrigued by performance, should i just have gotten a mazda SPEED, and avoided all this confusion? Would a MazdaSpeed FEEL exactly like FI? So would a NA feel different? How? Should i head over to a mazda dealership and ask to test a MS3?

Basically a dummies guide to it. There's alot of detailed info on this board for that, it's great. But 1st i need to know what you guys already know and where i can read about it.

Thanks alot.

 

[joshritger]

NA = Naturally Aspirated
Basically any mod that is done to the car short of putting a turbo on the car would still be considered Naturally Aspirated. It is very hard to get much extra power out of the stock NA motor. A fully built NA motor is expensive and doesn't give you the gains a turbo would give you.
FI = Forced Induction/Turbo
There are turbo kits available for these cars. There have been very nice power gains when adding a turbo kit. If you do get a turbo kit make sure it is reputable and make sure it is not an ebay turbo kit (very cheaply built). There are shops that will install turbo kits for you. They are not cheap though.
A well built m3s can be just as good or better than a MS3. The m3s does have some weak points that would need to be addressed when you do add that much power. The MS3 is already turboed. Most people start out with small mods such as a SRI or CAI and or a Cat Back Exhaust. You will see slight power gains from those, but you will notice a difference in the way the car accelerates and drives.

Hope that helps you a little,
Josh

 

[Diomedes]

Yup, that's already much of what i'm looking to find out. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Well, more questions i guess, basic orientation:

The m3s does have some weak points that would need to be addressed when you do add that much power.

I'd like to know about the negatives and things i should be weary of, regarding turbo. Is there anyway you could elaborate or point me to? Are we talking wearing down parts due to alterations to the system? Extra maintenance? Could you give me ballpark costs on how much if i had it installed (properly, of course)? Labour would add up wouldn't it? Are there any advantages to installing it yourself, beyond costs?
How about the sound? Our neighbor across the street has an eclipse, and man that thing roars. Me and my wife from the 1st week we moved in never bothered to learn his name, just addressed him as "mr.noisy car" ever since. We're obviously not talking about that much noise on a mazda i guess right?

So, mods on a NA engine, evidently they are not as noticeable as on a turbo. Im wondering, are they actually noticeable, or are they changes that someone would get excited over just because they installed themselves? I know that seems insulting, it's not meant to be, but is it a install something to get excited cause you installed something syndrome, or is it an installation that really is worth the net result.

At this point, pretty clear that what would shut me up is to try and compare myself..... Quite the mazda-reference-group-deficiency syndrome going on here eh? None of the guys i hang out with care much about cars much less even have anything to write home about. Total pioneering effort for myself, this is....

So i take it a m3s is an installed FI where MS3 is the way the mazdaspeed is produced.

 

[R242]

I've just put a turbo on my na 3. Well, had it installed...I wouldn't suggest doing it yourself, especially if it's a first time deal. Tri-Point seems to be the most reputable and well designed and tested kit for the 3, though there are others. It is based on a low psi yet large Garrett turbo, very similar in performance to the Speed3 at high rpms(research for particulars, pros and cons etc.) Concerns would be excessive wear on clutch, which leads to the transmission...I'm running stock internals but fully expect to upgrade clutch/flywheel in the next 10-20k miles, I don't push it much so maybe longer.

Also be prepared to work on your car alot more than you probably do now, I've learned alot about turbos and my car in the last few months since the upgrade.
But it's a labor of passion now, and I'm loving it.

A light NA build(bolt-ons without effecting engine internals) will put you around 170-180hp at the wheels, A full-blown NA build(cylinder boring, hardened rods and pistons, etc.) could get you pretty close to a turbo hp range, but takes alot more work.

 

[TRUE]

well theres ups and downs to both cars. the MZ3 (nonspeed) is less labor/maintenance, more reliability, cheaper gas prices, cheaper insurance, but yes it is harder and will take more money to make faster! the MS3 is more maintenance, higher gas prices, higher insurance rates and so and so forth but obviously a faster car and will be cheaper to make faster! Im all about speed, so if i COULD i would have gotten the MS3, but..... unfortunately my budget did not meet the price to pay for a MS3 (roughly 4+ grand more than my MZ3, at least where i live).

You could do all bolt on mods like dude said and I honestly belive you would be really satisfied with its power! But if you still dont think that would be enough, you could sell/trade your car and go after a MS3! its really your choice (of course)

Sound wise, with like an intake and exhaust the cars sound freaking great (speaking on mz3's) BUT i watched a video on youtube the other day where dude had a header, intake mani, full exhaust, and intake, (link below) the car sounded like a freaking muscle car at idle like it was SOOO loud, TO ME probally unbearable, i want a clean sound, not to quiet not to loud, so i dont think i could do what he did but that limits my power but one day i might just bite the bullet and accept the sound for the power gains, i dono :|

(i would stay away from cylinder boring, hardened rods and pistons, etc. ONLY because obviously your completely taking practicallity away from the car at that point, and your trying to build a race car, OF COURSE unless you want a race car, then by all means do it lol)

extra loud mz3 video, but im sure he has great power gains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LxAGwDoHxQ

 

[Diomedes]

the MS3 is more maintenance, higher gas prices, higher insurance rates and so and so forth but obviously a faster car and will be cheaper to make faster!

People want their MS3 faster??? Seriously? Doesn't it already have turbo equipped?

Im all about speed, so if i COULD i would have gotten the MS3, but..... unfortunately my budget did not meet the price to pay for a MS3 (roughly 4+ grand more than my MZ3, at least where i live).

Yeah, that's the exact same situation for me. The full equipment/upgrade process then costs how much? Which is more financially practical: Getting MS3 or aftermarket upgrades on a plain m3? I'm still trying to determine how much upgrading NA or upgrading to FI would cost. Trading in for a MS3 on the horizon sounds fair enough, but is there a need to if the m3 can be done up.

i want a clean sound, not to quiet not to loud, so i dont think i could do what he did but that limits my power but one day i might just bite the bullet and accept the sound for the power gains, i dono :|

That's exactly what i'm thinking too.

I've just put a turbo on my na 3. Well, had it installed...I wouldn't suggest doing it yourself, especially if it's a first time deal. Tri-Point seems to be the most reputable and well designed and tested kit for the 3, though there are others. It is based on a low psi yet large Garrett turbo, very similar in performance to the Speed3 at high rpms(research for particulars, pros and cons etc.) Concerns would be excessive wear on clutch, which leads to the transmission...I'm running stock internals but fully expect to upgrade clutch/flywheel in the next 10-20k miles, I don't push it much so maybe longer.

Also be prepared to work on your car alot more than you probably do now, I've learned alot about turbos and my car in the last few months since the upgrade.
But it's a labor of passion now, and I'm loving it.

A light NA build(bolt-ons without effecting engine internals) will put you around 170-180hp at the wheels, A full-blown NA build(cylinder boring, hardened rods and pistons, etc.) could get you pretty close to a turbo hp range, but takes alot more work.

Nice. I need to come down and drive your car, man. Except i'm up here all the way in toronto, lol. But good to hear your perspective. I'm prepared to learn and put time into my car finally. I was driving automatic Toyotas for so long that i had no interest in learning anything, but that's all changed.

 

[TRUE]

People want their MS3 faster??? Seriously? Doesn't it already have turbo equipped?

Yeah, that's the exact same situation for me. The full equipment/upgrade process then costs how much? Which is more financially practical: Getting MS3 or aftermarket upgrades on a plain m3? I'm still trying to determine how much upgrading NA or upgrading to FI would cost. Trading in for a MS3 on the horizon sounds fair enough, but is there a need to if the m3 can be done up.

That's exactly what i'm thinking too.

Nice. I need to come down and drive your car, man. Except i'm up here all the way in toronto, lol. But good to hear your perspective. I'm prepared to learn and put time into my car finally. I was driving automatic Toyotas for so long that i had no interest in learning anything, but that's all changed.

oh yea... lol MS3s are turbo charged but people still like to make them faster, alot faster lol going FI would cost at the very least 3,000, but NA for all the major bolt ons would be around 2grand (cai/intake manifold/headers/exhaust/bsd) and not to mention all the free mods you can do - advanced timing / vcts removal / tb ground / coolant bypass and more, i still belive you would definitely be happy with the performance from it! I think its more practical to buy an MZ3 and upgrade with performance because you can save here and there and periodically buy mods to add performance, rather than having that extra 4+ grand on the spot to buy a MS3, mods = saving money, plain and simple lol

thats what i do! just set money aside here and there and save up for a mod, then once i got that mod, move on to the next one!

 

[Diomedes]

Sounds good, I needed a figure in my head. I just wish I could compare them myself and make in person observations. For now I'll have to take your and everyones word, which I have no issue doing. I probably should head to a Mazda dealer or whatnot and test ms3, just so I know what comparable feels are like.
With na, since it's a process, it's better to do it yourself? Fi looks like it's something you do and you're done and would be justified in gtting someone to do it for you.
As much as I'd like to do it myself, frankly I have less time currently, and even less knowledge so it's pretty intimidating. Of course, I don't have a lot of money either so I guess I should not be so bothered. Things might have to wait (grumble)...
When you upgrade the performance and engine aspects, you're mainly looking at a lively acceleration, right?
Thanks for everything so far, this is great.

 

[R242]

Simply put a speed3 runs about 5k more than the na3. You can turbo or supercharge for less than that, but it better be a tight build or maintenance will empty your wallet lol. I've put close to 4500 into my turbo build, but I'm sure ill be dropping more here and there as time goes by. Advantage Speed3 here, if you buy new anyways you got a warranty(drive2)

 

[TRUE]

Simply put a speed3 runs about 5k more than the na3. You can turbo or supercharge for less than that, but it better be a tight build or maintenance will empty your wallet lol. I've put close to 4500 into my turbo build, but I'm sure ill be dropping more here and there as time goes by. Advantage Speed3 here, if you buy new anyways you got a warranty(drive2)

yeah if you plan on goin FI, i would just get a MS3 right off the bat. but im tellin ya, with all the bolt ons and such on the na 3 i thnk youll be happy ( ecspecially considering the fact you said you came from automatic toyotas all your life )