My New EMS! *Pics*

[daedalus]

Good post Beau. I didnt really understand the injector control information either until now.

 

[TurfBurn]

If you have 100% control of injection/fuel timing will increase midrange torque and fuel economy.With a synced/seq. the injector is spraying during the intake stroke. This allows you to spray fuel at precisely the right time when the airflow into the cylinder is the greatest providing the best possible atomization and the highest efficiency.

Most of the research documents I have checked also state that the gains are in the 1-3% range. Additionally, stock vehicles typically alter that methodology and often intentionally fire the injectors such that they complete their injection just as the valve opens (NOT during the intake stroke)... this increases valve cooling and has other "potential benefits" that some expound (including increase vapor etc in the tract) but are a bit more sketchy.

Additionally, to fully take advantage of the full effect of spraying during the intake stroke it is typically considered to be best standard to set up your injector spray timing so that the injector completes within a fraction of a millisecond before the valve closes. This requires timing the injectors relative to the angle of the motor relative to RPM for optimal firing... another feature that the Microtech has as well.

Everyone should keep in mind that the way a "stock" vehicle runs its fuel systems is often significantly different than how a "race" vehicle will run it's fuel systems. And while something may be more efficient than another... it is often matters of a few percent... on a 300 horse vehicle we are talking about 3-9 horse based on the 1-3% gains that is claimed with more efficient injection control schemes.

Lastly, while individual injector trim is great and all it requires several things that I doubt anyone on this forum has or does... you need to actually run a wideband for each individual cylinder to be able to determine the amount of trim necessary. While this extreme can be avoided by having the flow characterstics of each of your injectors, you still have to deal with any cylinder to cylinder variation in compression due to ring wear, any change in air flow on a per runner basis of that manifold, and any of a number of factors that significantly impact the AFR of each individual cylinder. Thus, use of individual injector trim is nearly impossible for the average user. The closes we can typically get is by periodically reading plugs and adjusting a trim for that particular cylinder, and/or switching injectors between cylinders to re-balance the system.

Just remember... every time you add a feature or an item... that is another thing you need to tune for it to be worthwhile or even non-detrimental.

 

[Mental Addiction]

Most of the research documents I have checked also state that the gains are in the 1-3% range. Additionally, stock vehicles typically alter that methodology and often intentionally fire the injectors such that they complete their injection just as the valve opens (NOT during the intake stroke)... this increases valve cooling and has other "potential benefits" that some expound (including increase vapor etc in the tract) but are a bit more sketchy.

Additionally, to fully take advantage of the full effect of spraying during the intake stroke it is typically considered to be best standard to set up your injector spray timing so that the injector completes within a fraction of a millisecond before the valve closes. This requires timing the injectors relative to the angle of the motor relative to RPM for optimal firing... another feature that the Microtech has as well.

Everyone should keep in mind that the way a "stock" vehicle runs its fuel systems is often significantly different than how a "race" vehicle will run it's fuel systems. And while something may be more efficient than another... it is often matters of a few percent... on a 300 horse vehicle we are talking about 3-9 horse based on the 1-3% gains that is claimed with more efficient injection control schemes.

Lastly, while individual injector trim is great and all it requires several things that I doubt anyone on this forum has or does... you need to actually run a wideband for each individual cylinder to be able to determine the amount of trim necessary. While this extreme can be avoided by having the flow characterstics of each of your injectors, you still have to deal with any cylinder to cylinder variation in compression due to ring wear, any change in air flow on a per runner basis of that manifold, and any of a number of factors that significantly impact the AFR of each individual cylinder. Thus, use of individual injector trim is nearly impossible for the average user. The closes we can typically get is by periodically reading plugs and adjusting a trim for that particular cylinder, and/or switching injectors between cylinders to re-balance the system.

Just remember... every time you add a feature or an item... that is another thing you need to tune for it to be worthwhile or even non-detrimental.

We also need to keep inmind heavily built and Boosted Protege don't run on the STOCK computer. They run a standalone. The more features a system has the better and more efficent the system is.
You can never have enough features on a standalone. Yes, the AEM can be alittle overwhelming for a first time user, but so was the first Playboy magazine he opened. With alittle time you master it.

 

[CasopoliS]

Yes, the AEM can be alittle overwhelming for a first time user, but so was the first Playboy magazine he opened. With alittle time you master it.

my new sig

 

[tekkie]

lol thats awesome

 

[TurfBurn]

We also need to keep inmind heavily built and Boosted Protege don't run on the STOCK computer. They run a standalone. The more features a system has the better and more efficent the system is.
You can never have enough features on a standalone. Yes, the AEM can be alittle overwhelming for a first time user, but so was the first Playboy magazine he opened. With alittle time you master it.

Right, you don't run the stock computer... but most people benchmark driveability and the like against the stock computer (of which our stock ECU isn't the best of benchmarks with hestitation etc)... the point is you throw out how you need to have the injectors opening during the intake cycle and people on here automatically assume that is the only way for an injector to run... little do they know that most stock vehicles don't run it that way.

Every feature you have on a standalone is one that has to be tuned, and for the majority of people out there that is a lot more work then they will be able to handle the first time out.. and it is that many more hours of work... it is also that much more chance for "problems" when a setting is off and it isn't known where it is. If you are building a full out race car and you want every possible power in the world then yes more is better. I've stated repeatedly that if you are going absolutely all out then the AEM or the like is the way to go. I'm very clear with every customer what the Microtech can and CAN'T do so they can make a decision as to what their needs are and if they'll be met.

But another 700 in your intercooler or turbo is going to add a lot more power to any already very driveable and feasible and simple system.

While Playboy may have it's merits, sometimes people want just the "articles" and jokes without the silicone and airbrushing.

 

[Bigg Tim]

HEY, I want in on the debate!!!!! The MPI has made the most power on the protege, per PSI, so far and it's a piggyback. I made over 220whp at 8psi, back east, and there was that MSP in Canada that made like 230-240 at 8psi (I believe) with the MPI and an xtra injector. When installed and tuned right, it's great. No need to worry about batch or sequential firing because it's a piggyback and the stock ECU does a fine enough job with that. Also no need to worry about cold starts or anything like that. You can pass Emission testing with it installed also. Now TOP THAT fella's!!!(evil)

Now, there is no need to get harsh, I'm just trying to poke some fun here with turf and Beau while also stating some facts. Please do get all bent out of shape.(thumb) I have no experience with other units so I am biased. I'm sure they are great in what each one does. I like things to be simple and sweet, so stand alones scare me a bit with all the tuning you do. I all boils down to what the owner wants to do and nothing else!!!!

 

[Bigg Tim]

..........While Playboy may have it's merits, sometimes people want just the "articles" and jokes without the silicone and airbrushing.

WHAT THE HELL R U SAYING?????? Who wants to read when there's nekid chicks on the next page!!!!!! You're starting to worry me a little.

 

[TurfBurn]

WHAT THE HELL R U SAYING?????? Who wants to read when there's nekid chicks on the next page!!!!!! You're starting to worry me a little.

"articles" man not articles. LOL... My point was sometimes things have extras that, while great, aren't necessarily the taste of everyone else... some guys love huge fake titties... others prefer a little more au naturalle .

 

[TurfBurn]

HEY, I want in on the debate!!!!! The MPI has made the most power on the protege, per PSI, so far and it's a piggyback. I made over 220whp at 8psi, back east, and there was that MSP in Canada that made like 230-240 at 8psi (I believe) with the MPI and an xtra injector. When installed and tuned right, it's great. No need to worry about batch or sequential firing because it's a piggyback and the stock ECU does a fine enough job with that. Also no need to worry about cold starts or anything like that. You can pass Emission testing with it installed also. Now TOP THAT fella's!!!(evil)

Now, there is no need to get harsh, I'm just trying to poke some fun here with turf and Beau while also stating some facts. Please do get all bent out of shape.(thumb) I have no experience with other units so I am biased. I'm sure they are great in what each one does. I like things to be simple and sweet, so stand alones scare me a bit with all the tuning you do. I all boils down to what the owner wants to do and nothing else!!!!

Yeah I do realize that Nick and you guys have made more horsepower in most cases I'm guessin that is just timing... most of the standalones haven't cranked it up yet all the way, and I've been sorting out things here and there too... it also depends car to car setup to setup dyno to dyno... so dynos numbers are never really that great of comparisons...

And btw... when I was doing 8 psi pulls before I stabilized out at 10 psi I was hitting around 218 or higher... .

 

[Bigg Tim]

"articles" man not articles. LOL... My point was sometimes things have extras that, while great, aren't necessarily the taste of everyone else... some guys love huge fake titties... others prefer a little more au naturalle .

LOL, I knew what you meant.....just bustin your balls!!!

 

[TurfBurn]

LOL, I knew what you meant.....just bustin your balls!!!

Hey now... statements like that start to make ME worry LOL.

 

[MPNick]

We also need to keep inmind heavily built and Boosted Protege don't run on the STOCK computer. They run a standalone. The more features a system has the better and more efficent the system is.

If you are talking an all out race car, maybe. This way you an live with the drawbacks of the standalones.

For a street car of any type, nothing works better then the stock computer.

Time will tell how well the standalones will work in the Proteges. For now I still see the bigger numbers with piggybacks.

How does more features make a system more efficent?

 

[daedalus]

I would agree with you to some degree... but then other stuff about the stock computer bothers me... like the fact that it cant hold timing at idle and jumps all over the place, causing the stumbling and sputtering our MSP's are becoming known for. To be honest, I cant think of much it does well. I'm at the point where i've decided the less the stock computer knows, the better.

 

[apocman]

True, but I have not had any problems from my ECU since I have a PiggyBack unit (MPI) installed and properly tuned. JBreed and I just installed an MPI unit on his car this weekend using the old Turbo Module that Linux Racer had and it is running like a champ as well!!!!

Of course, with a little phone and internet help from Linux Racer and Big Timm...

I think it is just a matter of choice more than a matter of which one is better than the other!!!

No matter how good or bad a device is, there will always be lovers and haters of every device made. Just A fact of life I suppose, good thing we have freedom of choice

I would agree with you to some degree... but then other stuff about the stock computer bothers me... like the fact that it cant hold timing at idle and jumps all over the place, causing the stumbling and sputtering our MSP's are becoming known for. To be honest, I cant think of much it does well. I'm at the point where i've decided the less the stock computer knows, the better.

 

[Mr. Win]

here we go again...

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

I think we all know the A'pexi S-AFC is the best piggyback on the planet. (stfu)

 

[MPNick]

I think we all know the A'pexi S-AFC is the best piggyback on the planet. (stfu)

I have used it on customers. It does work nice in open loop. The problem is when you change the MAF or MAP voltage you also change the timing. So if you add a O2 clamp and some type of timing control you have a winner. You also have what the MPI does right now.

 

[Spooled]

So if I read this correctly, sequential injection should nearly double your fuel economy since half the injectors are just wasting fuel, right? Well, I guess not really double since when the intake valve opens for the cylinder that had a wasted shot, that shot gets sucked in along with the current shot. It's probably a lot more accurate, though, since that wasted fuel probably pools up and isn't atomized as well.

That's it, I want SFI now!

 

[TurfBurn]

So if I read this correctly, sequential injection should nearly double your fuel economy since half the injectors are just wasting fuel, right? Well, I guess not really double since when the intake valve opens for the cylinder that had a wasted shot, that shot gets sucked in along with the current shot. It's probably a lot more accurate, though, since that wasted fuel probably pools up and isn't atomized as well.

That's it, I want SFI now!

No, that isn't correct.... the fuel is still used, and the intake charge picks up nearly all of it on the rush in due to the speeds of the air charge.

In fact it was neglected to be mentioned that it is often beneficial to inject on to the back of the valve as it keeps the valve cooler and creates more vapor due to evaporation of the gasoline on the hot surfaces that helps in parts of the burn... atomization is really just a close "approximation" of evaporated fuel because it does not have enough time to fully reach a vapor state... but gasoline as a liquid is not hugely flammable in and of itself.. it is the vapor that is volatile...

So while sequential has it's benefits you do also lose some of the aspects of vapor charging and valve cooling, but you typically gain due to the fact that you USUALLY have a fully atomized injection, versus the semi-sequential spray pattern (1 and 4, 2 and 3 fire together) because there is some fuel that doesn't atomize and doesn't vaporize either.

And once a vehicle is at steady state or so forth the pooling time is typicallly very low and doesn't occur... you more end up with a "film" on the runner/port walls, but it does lead to some "large" droplets (typically still in the micro liter range) being generated which is not desireable when compared to an atomized droplet.