ms3 bang for your buck over a s2k??

[bast525]

Okay I went and dug up my back issues to give you guys more info:

Magazine: Car and Driver, August '07

Article: Lightning Lap!

Concept: Take 13 of the fastest cars available from four different price ranges and see who is the fastest.

Track: Virginia International Raceway

Mazdaspeed highlight: The MS3 runs a 3:16.0 at an average of 75.1 mph. It is barely beaten by a Solstice GXP (turbo) at 3:15.7 and also averaging 75.1 mph. The next fastest car is a BMW Z4 M which runs a 3:11.7 at 77mph.


Magazine: Motor Trend, June '07

Article: America's Best Handling Car

Concept: Take 10 of the best handling cars available in the US, from different price groups and powertrain configurations (FWD, RWD, AWD, and rear engine are all represented), and run them through a barrage of tests to measure how they handle. Then, they hire a professional race car driver to drive each one around a racetrack and see who's fastest.

Track: Laguna Seca

Mazdaspeed highlight: The MS3 runs a 1:50.375 at avg. of 73 mph. It edges out an S2000 which runs a 1:50.738 at 72.8 mph (sorry I thought I remembered the gap being bigger). The next fastest car is the BMW 335i which runs a 1:49.038 at 73.9.


I think this goes to show that if you take a FWD and RWD car with very similiar power to weight ratios, that are both set up for the track as these cars more or less are from the factory, that RWD will not win by default simply because it's RWD. As anyone who has been to a track day or autocross knows, FWD can be just as capable with the right setup and in the right hands. Sure, some people will still say "well RWD 'feels' better". I say, 'feel' is a matter of opinion.

As far as FWD cars go, the MS3 is the third most balanced FWD I've ever driven, behind only an Integra Type R and a Celica GT-S. It is very neutral for a car with 60% + of it's weight over the front. It can easily be made to oversteer in turns and is very controllable when doing so. Many magazine/interweb writers have mentioned this, and I've done it myself on many occasions.

When I bought my MS3, I had shopped and test driven many cars, including a Mustang GT, Evo RS, Solstice GXP, GTO and an RX-8. I chose the MS3 because it was the best balance of price/value, performance, excellent driving feel, sleeper-ness, and practicality. And I haven't regretted it (well sometimes I do regret passing on that Evo!!).

 

[happy and angry]

I don't think anyone is saying the RWD will win by default, but while the power to weight ratio is similar, the torque numbers on these cars are not. The Mazdaspeed3 will be able to drive out of the corners better.

You can argue that feel is a matter of opinion, but lateral grip numbers and weight distribution numbers do not. The Mazdaspeed3 put up .87 lateral Gs with C&D, the 2008 S2000 put up .95. That's a profound difference, and a big part of it has to do with the fact that the car is RWD.

You guys can look at track times and see comparable numbers, but they do not tell the whole story. Our car does NOT handle as well as an S2000. It gets a better drive out of the corners and has more power down low, and subsequently gets a much better drive out of the corners. I'm not saying it handles poorly, but it's not a lighter, better balanced roadster with a lower center of gravity.

 

[bast525]

Hmmm okay looking at the same Motor Trend article:

Cornering grip:
Mazdaspeed 3 - 0.893 g
S2000 - 0.899 g

At the same skidpad on the same day with the same driver. Not that big of a difference at all.

The S2000 did hand the MS3 it's ass in the Lane Change test

Lane Change Avg. Speed:
Mazdaspeed 3 - 62.6
S2000 - 66.7

and in the Peak Lateral Acceleration measured during the Laguna Seca runs...

Mazdaspeed 3 - 1.31 g
S2000 - 1.40 g

The overall score of that article, which again, was a test of each cars handling and driving feel, with something like 10 different tests ranging from cornering grip to steering effort to body roll, put the S2000 only ONE POINT ahead of the MS3, 27 to 26 respectively. The lowest scorer was the Civic Si with 21 points, the highest was a Porsche GT3 which scored 37.8 points. Just for reference.

Of course it's going to handle better... RWD, lighter, smaller, but again, it's not this HUGE leap that some people just expect because it's FWD vs. RWD. According to that article, it's barely any better at all. Point is, overall performance, the MS3 puts it all together and ends up being faster, in straight line, and on a race track, for as much as $10,000 less.

As far as the MS3 vs. the Solstice GXP, the torque and HP are VERY similiar, with the GXP coming up only 20 ftlbs short on torque, but also weighing less. And it still could only pull .3 seconds ahead of the MS3 at VIR.

 

[chacon101]

I remember reading that article but I don't remember if they mentioned anything about tires. That alone can make or break a track day like this. If the stock S2k tires are more performance oriented from the factory than the MS3, then it would be at a pretty big advantage. I would like to see a track run with these cars on the same tires and driver.

 

[Betelgeuse]

I remember reading that article but I don't remember if they mentioned anything about tires. That alone can make or break a track day like this. If the stock S2k tires are more performance oriented from the factory than the MS3, then it would be at a pretty big advantage. I would like to see a track run with these cars on the same tires and driver.

+1

Tires do make a difference in addition to the driver. It's something often overlooked.

 

[builthatch]

Our car does NOT handle as well as an S2000

exactly.

 

[happy and angry]

Of course it's going to handle better... RWD, lighter, smaller, but again, it's not this HUGE leap that some people just expect because it's FWD vs. RWD.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying we lose BECAUSE of the drivetrain, but that the drivetrain dictates weight balance, center of gravity, and to some degree cornering characteristics.

I know which of the two I'd rather run at a track day, and I know which of the two I'd rather have as a daily driver, even if the times are the same or similar at a track.

 

[MicaSp33d]

i driven rwd and fwd cars and all i have to so is , yes i would prefer a rwd car over a fwd pretty much just because i like to be pushed out of a corner ... but the only real difference in the two is just the way the car reacts to throttle and steering inputs. I don't think you can say car A is better than car B just because its a RWD, etc ...

 

[bast525]

I was waiting for someone to mention tires... funny thing too.

Both cars were equipped with the factory stock tires, which is to say, both cars were rolling on Bridgestone Potenza RE050A's.

that's right, the S2k comes stock wearing the same tires as the MS3 does. So did the BMW 335i. The S2K's are wider though.

 

[MS6S2K]

Interesting comparison. A pure sports car to a performance version of a hatchback. I own an 06 S2K along with a Speed 6, and the thing I love about the S2K the most is it's pure built, one trim. It's more of an autocross car, and I didn't buy it for the power. It takes much more skill to go fast in, so more often then not a Speed 3 or even a 6 will win a race vs an S2K, and from a highway roll, I don't think the S2K stands a chance. I know my Speed 6 will take one form a 70mph roll without too much trouble. The car relies on hp, and yeah, as everyone knows it's torqueless. It's FI vs N/A though.

Definitely apples to oranges. I'd have loved to have seen Honda try and put the engine from the NSX in this car. That would be something. The car simply isn't what you buy if going fast in a straight line is what you seek. it's more the fun factor, drop top and the looks. I love the car. I love my Speed 6, and I'd love to own a Speed 3. All great in their own unique way.

I've been contemplating a s/c kit for my S2K, but the price is too high, but I bet that's a blast.

 

[builthatch]

for what it's worth, lazerbluep5 owns an s2k and an ms3, concurrently. he can probably give some insight similar to me when people were asking about the ms3 compared to an 8th gen si; i have both cars.