MS or H&R coilovers

[Biggs]

need some help deciding what I should go for. I was originally thinking H&R. good quality and decent price, but Im not sure if I like the fact that the shortest drop is over 1 inch in the front and 3/4s of an inch in the back. The other question is how they will they hold up after a handfull of track days per year. (shrug)

From what I understand the Mazdaspeed coilovers are KW Variant 2's. I think their overall quality is on par if not better than H&R but I also like that the drop is from 1/4 inch to 1 inch lower than stock, giving me the option to run closer to stock height if I chose to.

As you probably guessed Im not looking for an overly aggressive drop, just something that firms and flattens the ride and is able to handle track use.

If your wondering, I passed up on going the spring kit route because of the issues with the stock struts. and in the end, the springs and struts cost ends up being pretty close to the cost of the coilovers anyway.

let me know your thoughts.

 

[funksilver07]

I've done the research, if I were going coilovers I would go with Mazdaspeed coilovers. I'm sure you will the argument for other brands that perform well too, or how low you want to go. I don't feel the need to drop more than the Mazdaspeed coilovers will do, some might want more of a drop. Personal choice. I just don't think you can find a bad review on the Mazdaspeed set up. You will need to get the rear camber links as well. BC coilovers are used by quite a few with good results, pricing is less too.

 

[MrDouble]

If you're going to track it go MS coils. You have to decide if the the extra control and feedback you get on a track is worth the harsher ride on street. Plus you get adjustability with the MSs.

 

[Design]

Track = MS Coilovers all the way.

I am going with H&R's specifically for daily drivability. Progressive spring rates make them ideal for the street but a bit too mild for frequent track use. I'll probably see less than 1 track day per year. Not enough to justify the stiffer spring rates and extra $400.00.

 

[Biggs]

is the MS ride really that much harsher than the H&Rs?

 

[FrequentFlyer]

I believe the MS coilovers are KW variant 3's, not 2's.

 

[Design]

is the MS ride really that much harsher than the H&Rs?

They are not really harsh; they are just stiff and a bit of an overkill for a DD. They are specifically designed for track use but many say they are acceptable for the street. But they do not come with a warranty like H&R does.

And FrequentFlyer is right - they are comparable to KW V3's. Only exception is that the front springs are linear and there is a black adjustment collar preventing the front from being dropped too low.

 

[ericm]

Any harsher and the MS coils would be too much for DD use. (but keep in mind that I'm 49 and drive some really bumpy roads). They're great when the road is smooth or I'm going fast.

I lowered my car the minimum that is possible with the MS coilovers (1/2") , and it's as low as is practical. I have to go at an angle on some driveways.

There is no warranty on the MS coilovers. I recently had the rear shock lower bushing go bad on one of mine, and Mazdaspeed wouldn't do anything ('we're a race support organization. You should go to the dealer you bought them from" "I bought them on line" "Hmm, that's not supposed to even be possible").

But KW will sell you parts. I bought new bushings ($20 each) and replaced them myself. (requiring a shop press and a lathe to make the appropriate tool)

If you buy KWs or MS coilovers, check the rear shock bushings. If they are three piece, with two small collars/spacers, do yourself a favor and replace them with the new ones. The old ones have failed on some other cars. I believe that KW is replacing the under warranty, at least for KW brand suspension.

 

[MrDouble]

I would think KW/MS would be tolerable for DD, if it's anything like Cusco Zero 2s I had on WRX few years ago. Very controlled ride but you'll feel every bump and surface imperfections, going fast on small dips will lift you off the seat. Personally I liked the controlled ride so it didn't bother me since it transformed handling responsiveness.

Went with H&Rs on my MS because wife won't tolerate the ride and won't be tracking the car.

 

[Biggs]

Well arent the MS coils able to be adjusted? What about just dialing it back to its softest setting during normal driving?

And whats the big complaint about the HRs on the track? Is it that they arent respocive enough or are they not strong enough, and will break on me.
Again its looking like ill be tracking just a few times a year.

 

[BigDaddyMS3]

Coilovers

I've done the research, if I were going coilovers I would go with Mazdaspeed coilovers. I'm sure you will the argument for other brands that perform well too, or how low you want to go. I don't feel the need to drop more than the Mazdaspeed coilovers will do, some might want more of a drop. Personal choice. I just don't think you can find a bad review on the Mazdaspeed set up. You will need to get the rear camber links as well. BC coilovers are used by quite a few with good results, pricing is less too.

KW is an excellent company. I have them on my Roush Mustang. The feeling and adjustability on track is awesome. I'll be getting the MS coilovers soon.

 

[Design]

Well arent the MS coils able to be adjusted? What about just dialing it back to its softest setting during normal driving?

And whats the big complaint about the HRs on the track? Is it that they arent respocive enough or are they not strong enough, and will break on me.
Again its looking like ill be tracking just a few times a year.

I can't comment directly as I've never ridden on H&R's at the track. But here's what you should expect; they allow a bit more body roll than MS due to their progressive design. I would estimate H&R's are 25-50% stiffer than stock vs nearly 100% on MS.

You want a little suspension travel on a DD. Suspension travel = ride comfort. Stiffer springs = less suspension travel = choppy ride over certain road conditions. Adjustable shocks and struts will only do so much to accomodate stiffer springs. So in the end you want springs stiff enough for spirited driving but soft enough for potholes, freeway gaps, and deviations in the road.

If you're a track rat, Mazdaspeed is the best package you can get under 1700. If you do some street driving but are more concerned about the track/performance at the limits, KW would be a better choice (front springs are slightly more progressive and offer a slightly more compliant ride). For a primary DD, H&R coilovers or a conservative spring/shock combo.

 

[Biggs]

I can't comment directly as I've never ridden on H&R's at the track. But here's what you should expect; they allow a bit more body roll than MS due to their progressive design. I would estimate H&R's are 25-50% stiffer than stock vs nearly 100% on MS.

You want a little suspension travel on a DD. Suspension travel = ride comfort. Stiffer springs = less suspension travel = choppy ride over certain road conditions. Adjustable shocks and struts will only do so much to accomodate stiffer springs. So in the end you want springs stiff enough for spirited driving but soft enough for potholes, freeway gaps, and deviations in the road.

If you're a track rat, Mazdaspeed is the best package you can get under 1700. If you do some street driving but are more concerned about the track/performance at the limits, KW would be a better choice (front springs are slightly more progressive and offer a slightly more compliant ride). For a primary DD, H&R coilovers or a conservative spring/shock combo.

ok so its more about a purely performane difference than structural intergrity.

I've also gone back to the idea of spring/strut combo. the Eibach prokit and the Koni Sport struts... if they are comperable to the HRs in terms of ride and performance then I may end up going with them.

... still debating

 

[Design]

I like Pro-Kit springs. Used them on my previous car with Koni Sports (yellows) and the ride quality was good. But, IMO, the valving/spring rate will not be as well matched as a complete spring/damper kit. On the MS3 you have to remove the rear Konis to adjust the rebound.

Also forgot to mention that MS/KW is a twin tube design while H&R is monotube. Monotube designs generally last longer but run higher pressure, making them more ideal for track. Twin tube designs are more cost effective and are generally used on passenger vehicles. However, with proper valving either design can be tailored for the street or track.

This article is a quick and dirty summary that does not have too much bias towards one design or the other. Hope that helps:
http://www.kyb.com/technical/monotube.php

 

[Biggs]

Also forgot to mention that MS/KW is a twin tube design while H&R is monotube. Monotube designs generally last longer but run higher pressure, making them more ideal for track. Twin tube designs are more cost effective and are generally used on passenger vehicles. However, with proper valving either design can be tailored for the street or track.

This article is a quick and dirty summary that does not have too much bias towards one design or the other. Hope that helps:
http://www.kyb.com/technical/monotube.php

wait so your saying the H&R (monotube design) is better for the track??? Im confused now lol

Either way though, after more thought, I feel like the H&Rs are going to fit my situation the best. Even though I will track the car I think I would appreciate the ride quality of the H&Rs over the MS/KSs in the long run. The price is also a factor as well. Plus the warrenty that comes with the HRs.

 

[Design]

Not necessarily; it has more to do with valving and spring rates. Twin tube dampers tend to fade over time due to increased amounts of friction. It's negligible for most owners, but after 40-60K you'd probably notice a difference (that's my guess at least).

Might also help to know that H&R's minimum drop is 1.25"F and .75"R. For warranty support, they require you to return the component(s) to the dealer where you bought it.

It's always good to know what you're getting into before making a 1K+ purchase. GL.

 

[Biggs]

Not necessarily; it has more to do with valving and spring rates. Twin tube dampers tend to fade over time due to increased amounts of friction. It's negligible for most owners, but after 40-60K you'd probably notice a difference (that's my guess at least).

Might also help to know that H&R's minimum drop is 1.25"F and .75"R. For warranty support, they require you to return the component(s) to the dealer where you bought it.

It's always good to know what you're getting into before making a 1K+ purchase. GL.

Hmm, I understand what you mean now.
Im willing to deal with the greater drop, as I intend on going with a slightly lower profile 235/40 tire in the future which will leave me with even more gap. I should (hope) be fine.

 

[not yellow]

i went with H&Rs. for a DD and regular spirited drives they have been great! i'm rarely at the track but get the feeling that they would be a bit soft when pushed to the limit there.

 

[Biggs]

as long as they are more responsive than OEM suspension I should be happy.

btw notyellow, I was sitting along side an Mx5 today in traffic thought of your setup, those wheels are sweet in person... makes our OEM 10-spokers look bloated.

 

[not yellow]

as long as they are more responsive than OEM suspension I should be happy.

btw notyellow, I was sitting along side an Mx5 today in traffic thought of your setup, those wheels are sweet in person... makes our OEM 10-spokers look bloated.

oh, yes... H&Rs are 10x better than the stock suspension! only a little stiffer, but much more planted and responsive feeling.

first thing i did when i bought my MS3 was sell the stock wheels. the MX-5s actually have the same basic design just with narrower spokes... looks much better in my opinion.

edit: if you are interested in reading more about the H&Rs you can see my install/review thread.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123767199