Mass graves in Iraq

[shinzen]

Well, I was interested to see this information come across the pipes. Tony Blair is admitting that the claim of "Over 400,000 bodies being found" in mass graves was hugely inflated. Not to detract from the fact that there have been some found, but this is insane that these claims would be so exaggerated. Where is the retraction or admission from BushCO? Here are a couple of links-
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html

this one is from the Whitehouse website, look down about halfway talking about WMD's..
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031117-1.html

 

[katsmp3]

but remember how it happened whether it was 4,000 or 400,000. The gov't informed farmers that they would be using there land and that they were no longer in control of it. Then they would dig a huge hole. Each day they would line people up.. shoot them.. and push them into the hole.. when it was getting close to the top, they filled the rest with dirt.

the world is a better place today.

 

[shinzen]

My point was not related to whether or not the world is better off without Saddam- merely that the longer this goes on, the more exaggerated the evidence that took us there becomes...

EDIT:
Just because I can't leave this alone- if the 3-4k is accurate, who at this point has killed more innocent Iraqi citizens? The U.S.

 

[70]

Small world.

I got to see some of these graves first hand. We went out to a couple dozen farmer's land and watched as they dug up bodies after bodies.

We were really looking for one specific body as we had heard some intel that one of the bodies found had an "american style combat boot on." We thought it might have been the Air Force pilot that was lost in the Gulf War.

We never found that body while I was there. But the graves had a big impact when we rolled up. You don't really get a good feeling until you see these things up close and personal.

 

[Notorious]

splitting hairs, 4000 or 400,000, or 400 million. It's all the same in the end. Way too much.

 

[shinzen]

Having never been there myself, I have no idea how it would impact me firsthand, but it wouldn't be in a good way I am sure.

Small world.

I got to see some of these graves first hand. We went out to a couple dozen farmer's land and watched as they dug up bodies after bodies.

We were really looking for one specific body as we had heard some intel that one of the bodies found had an "american style combat boot on." We thought it might have been the Air Force pilot that was lost in the Gulf War.

We never found that body while I was there. But the graves had a big impact when we rolled up. You don't really get a good feeling until you see these things up close and personal.

 

[mspeedpro]

Theres no telling how many bodies are there, youre right. Our number one priority should have been to get every number exactly right before going in our else it means that we are in the wrong. By the way, I'm glad you can offer a link to show how many US soldiers haev lost their lives but I'm interested to see where America has killed 13,000 civilians.

 

[PhreakV]

Theres no telling how many bodies are there, youre right. Our number one priority should have been to get every number exactly right before going in our else it means that we are in the wrong. By the way, I'm glad you can offer a link to show how many US soldiers haev lost their lives but I'm interested to see where America has killed 13,000 civilians.

if you pay attention to his sig it mentions nothing of America killing those people... it says civilian casualties without giving a cause for their deaths. if you would really like to get picky about how the # was arrived at go here:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
while I can't imagine that its entirely correct it does make you stop and think because it makes source references for the numbers from agencies like Reuters, AP, etc...

edit: Sean Hannity is a douche... not to attack but rather just a general feeling of being fed up with his 'fair and balanced' bulls***... I feel better now.

 

[shinzen]

msspeed- you misunderstand my intent by saying what I did- It strikes me as kind of strange not that we could be off(people make mistakes, sure) But the overall amount of mistakes and estimations that have gone into this war seem to be pretty extreme. I would say, as an opinion, that if it was claimed at 400,000, just being in the hundreds of thousands would be a reasonable amount- but being off by a factor of 100?? Phreak was absolutely correct on the other things mentioned(including Hannity!!)

 

[70]

Part of the problem with the number I think stems from the source. The Clinton Administration was supposedly keeping track of this.

Sure the number is off, but chances are we haven't found all of the graves yet. And, something else that needs to be mentioned is that the graves are filled with both Iraqis and Kuwaitis...

 

[shinzen]

That seems to be a bit off topic stutters- I was speaking to the claims of hundreds of thousands being found- I am not sure what you are speaking to.
You are absolutely correct on probably not finding all of them yet- and that's where the issue, in my opinion is. Making the claims that were made, being retracted by Blair but no acknowledgement buy our gov seems to be a bit on the strange side.

 

[70]

Yeah, I saw your contention in the article.

He said prior to the war that 400,000 have been found. And now, after months of searching the number is only in the 5,000 range.

Sorry for the off topic-ness. But I think it is important to note everything regarding the graves, not just the number of people.

 

[katsmp3]

Part of the argument is this. We decided that we could not excavate all of the graves. We only picked a couple to excavate. The graves are all over Iraq and we know where a lot of them are.. but what were we suppose to do with all of the bodies we excavated. The gov't here and there agreed that it was not practical to excavate all of the mass graves.

 

[Akaveli]

but remember how it happened whether it was 4,000 or 400,000. The gov't informed farmers that they would be using there land and that they were no longer in control of it. Then they would dig a huge hole. Each day they would line people up.. shoot them.. and push them into the hole.. when it was getting close to the top, they filled the rest with dirt.

the world is a better place today.

the world is a better place today?! I would love to know what planet your living on.(blah)

 

[shinzen]

I understand what you mean here, however, if we had decided to excavate just a "few" mass graves, why not make it newsworthy and make it a few really big ones, even if we just bulldozed back over them- the value to the american and british people would have been far more effective than what has happened..

Part of the argument is this. We decided that we could not excavate all of the graves. We only picked a couple to excavate. The graves are all over Iraq and we know where a lot of them are.. but what were we suppose to do with all of the bodies we excavated. The gov't here and there agreed that it was not practical to excavate all of the mass graves.

 

[dominoy2k1]

my toe hurts....

 

[katsmp3]

Akaveli, Bill Clinton got a memo during his first term in office that said, "Bin Laden is planning on flying planes into the Pentagon and possibly the WTC." If we had taken measures then, you would have been bitching that they hadn't done anything to us. The world is DEFINATELY safer. Thats not even the argument for war. The arguement is more of if it is worth the sacrifice.

About which graves to dig up.. I really dont know the answer.. but I think that Mass Media would have a big problem with us uncovering mass graves just to show that they are there (political gain) and then covering them back up

 

[shinzen]

I would reccommend that when you guys get a chance, read the 9-11 reports, especially chapter 8- I am still working on it myself, but it does get pretty in depth about what happened and how.

 

[Akaveli]

Akaveli, Bill Clinton got a memo during his first term in office that said, "Bin Laden is planning on flying planes into the Pentagon and possibly the WTC." If we had taken measures then, you would have been bitching that they hadn't done anything to us. The world is DEFINATELY safer. Thats not even the argument for war. The arguement is more of if it is worth the sacrifice.

About which graves to dig up.. I really dont know the answer.. but I think that Mass Media would have a big problem with us uncovering mass graves just to show that they are there (political gain) and then covering them back up

First of all if you wanna really get into it. The last 3 presidents have been recieving memos of possible attacks on this country. Let alone WTC, After the first damn bombing of the WTC,(which I was in NYC school during the time and we thought a Nuclear bomb had went off) that should have been a clear indication of how these buildings CAN be a TARGET!. No security was inceased, no changes have been made to make us feel any safer. But no, this is Untouchable America no terriosts or country would dare try and harm us.(blah) A few years later look what happens. 9/11 Oh, now lets beef us the security and all this other bullshyt, I might say. Imagine what could have happen if they would have taken notice from the first bombing? The EFFORT they could have put into increasing security back then. Then No 9/11? I bet you there wouldn't have been. And all thoughs lives wouldn't have been wasted.

Like I said before this america/world isn't any safer prior 9/11 or after. Don't be fooled into thinking these times are getting safer. We are still vulnurable(sp), now just like we was before.

 

[katsmp3]

you are right.. we should have done nothing and not gone to war.. blah blah blah