MAM Vs. Thunder Mani pics
- Thread starter ForceFed
- Start date
Yeah, we are a few miles apart.
It's amazing how tricky it can be to line-up product comparisons. It's a ton of effort, but in the end everybody wins. Companies know how their products stack up, and customers get to see what their money get's them.
Oh well, the test will happen someday I'm sure.
ECU tuning for the MSP needs more support though. I spent $1200 on my K-pro and never looked back. Good software is worth it's weight in gold when modding.
yellowmsp035
Member
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- Yellow 2003.5 MSP
i would be interested in this manifold if it was to the quality of the MAM and similar design but with external WG and straight turbo flange (not like msp setup)
try becoming a member of TOProtege.com... it is a canadian protege site and i know there are some guys with proteges on it that are from alberta
How do you mean straight turbo flange?
It can be done, I just assumed a stock turbo flange would sell best.
I like the external waste gate idea is good though, guess they go hand-in-hand.
I think that making those changes would make a nice power increase.
blueprotegelx
iZoom
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- 2003 Mazda Protege LX-T
that's sweet! i may have to take a drive up and check out your msp in person. did u ever paint the erebuni hood i sold you?
Heres a couple pics of the MAM with my GT28 Strapped to it.
yellowmsp035
Member
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- Yellow 2003.5 MSP
straight flange meaning so the turbo sits parallel to the black... if you know what i mean???
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- -- 03 P5 / 23 CX-5 --
Didn't SLS buy up a lot of the MAM designs, equipment & stuff? Surprised they haven't attempted this piece. Nice setup BTW.
Hmmm, this is tempting. I'm swamped for the next 5 weeks, but after I might have a spare minute or 2 to make a race manifold for this.
It's easy to say you could bring it up a notch or 2 in quality without having seen or attempted to build one. I worked at MAM for a few months before they went under (so did a few other Utah guys). This was way back when they where in AZ and moving here to Utah. Another guy on here and I helped with the move and helped get things setup. They had a few engineering posters that gave examples and explanations of things like, "vena contracta, Venturi, Wave dynamics and I can't remember what else." He had these made because people would ask the same questions and he would get tired of repeating himself, so he would just point (He was kind of short and rude sometimes). I can tell you that the MSP manifold is not an easy part to make. MAM had a few fabricators and Beau was the only one who could make them look and fit right. If you are going to keep the stock location and stock size I can bet that you will not be changing the collector or much of the design. There is no room and nothing easy about that manifold. Phil and I both witnessed just how tough they are to build. MAM also made the Sleeper and Thumper manifolds. These changed the turbo location and turbo size.
I copied and pasted what MAM had posted about turbo design in your other thread. The science behind the design is what sets it apart from others. Without a thorough understanding of how things work effienctly you will be taking a stab at it in the dark,
Here it is.
A turbo uses the energy present in the exhaust pulse to produce boost, so the faster and more efficiently the manifold can deliver exhaust pulses from each cylinder to the turbo, the quicker the turbo will spool up and produce boost.
The idea behind keeping each exhaust pulse separate to the collector is to control and minimize the turbulence created when the exhaust pulses merge. Uncontrolled turbulence equals lost energy, as the exhaust gas pulses lose their direction and cannot deliver their full punch to the turbine. With a design that creates turbulence inside the manifold, energy is wasted, creating heat instead of spinning the turbine (The added heat will burn exhaust valves)
A collector manifold style is superior to a log manifold style, non-collector style, or cast manifolds for the simple fact that turbulence is limited to one point instead of two, maximizing the energy potential.This results in faster turbo spool up, and potentially more energy to create boost.
Besides the minimizing lost energy, reducing turbulence also has another desirable effect: the creation of a freer flowing exhaust path for the engine. We all know the freer the flow the more HP you will make.
A properly designed collector style manifold will help an engine in its job of evacuating exhaust gasses from the combustion chamber and minimizing energy loss that is normally lost in this process. This also means more of the exhaust gas is expelled on each exhaust stroke of the crankshaft, which is known as cylinder scavenging.
You must maintain exhaust pulse velocity from the cylinder head to the collector in a manifold.This is done by designing a properly sized collector in relation to the primary runner diameter.
The design of the collector itself can play a large role in what happens to the exhaust pulses after they reach the collector. The shape and length of a collector, in relation to the secondary runner, can promote a venturi effect, which positively affects the velocity of the exhaust pulses heading towards it in the primary runners.
Individual exhaust pulses reach the collector at different times due to the way that a four-stroke engine works. For one rotation of the crankshaft, while one pulse is entering the collector, other ones are at different points along the primary runner lengths of a manifold. When a pulse enters the collector, it expands due to the greater volume found there (collector).
The localized expansion of this exhaust pulse creates a suction effect on the other primary runners that converge at the collector, thus further helping the exhaust pulses in those runners to maintain as much velocity as possible.
However, just like how the exhaust pulses under pressure in the primaries seek out the relatively low-pressure collector, the pulse that is expanding in the collector will try to enter the other primary runners at the collector. As the expanding gas from the collector entering the other primary exits would then present a restriction to the pulses moving down the primaries, instead of helping them.
Thus, a necessary component in the collector is an anti reversion wall (4-1 Pyramid).This is the wall (the pryamid) present in the collector design that presents a barrier to the expanding gas in the collector, discouraging it from entering the other primaries. Keeping the expansion in the collector and not in the other primaries that are trying to deliver their exhaust pulses helps low backpressure and restrictions.
Thus, a collector must be much more than just a meeting place of the individual exhaust pulses. Without a 4-1-pyramid collector or equal to, the collector can actually slow down the exhaust pulses in the primaries. Slow it down and you make it hard for the engine to breath freely.
If we keep it basic and look at just restriction ideas you will see why a tubular manifold with a 4-1 pyramid collector will create less resistance and make more power day in and day out (if designed right). Less restriction means more power.
This is from Mental Addiction about 2-3 years ago.
If you can reproduce a manifold that has the function and science behind it, you will have a halo over your head as they do when it comes to manifolds.
This sounds fine, but until it proves to be substantially better than any of the other designs including steed's, it's just theory.
Turbo cars are not as fussy in design as n/a motors.
I know I can make a nicer job of it, check my website.
I'm not saying it will work any better, but it will likely work just as good and look nicer.
It's not my first picnic, I teach this for a living at one of the best trades colleges in Canada, if not North America.
More tests are needed before we can claim alot, but it's a nice manifold, not taking anything away from them.
Turbo cars are not as fussy in design as n/a motors.
I know I can make a nicer job of it, check my website.
I'm not saying it will work any better, but it will likely work just as good and look nicer.
It's not my first picnic, I teach this for a living at one of the best trades colleges in Canada, if not North America.
More tests are needed before we can claim alot, but it's a nice manifold, not taking anything away from them.
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You should do a search. It has proven to be substantially better. A scientific theory will out do ideas. The fact that the MAM manifolds are based around proven scientific theory is going to be hard to beat. Since they are long gone and research has stopped, it will only be a matter of time before someone comes along and out does it. But before that happens the developer will need the understanding and theories of why things work. A log manifold will make a turbo spool; however, it is not efficient or even a good comparison to a well designed 4-1 tubular manifold. I have seen your stuff and it’s truly well built piece. Quality and workmanship is outstanding. With that said, I would say it’s more marketable to a stock replacement manifold and not the tuned efficient tubular style you are trying to imply. IMO you are going to lose your ass in a dyno comparison on anything above 10psi. If my memory serves me, MAM’s manifolds were made for the performance enthusiast and not the stock replacement guy (he said something to that effect). The MSP tubular manifold they made was designed for the guy that had bolt ons and 10psi+.
I know 505zoom has a bunch of MAM parts on his car. Maybe he would do some testing for you.
steedspeed
Member
Bring it on!
What, a dyno war of manifolds? You will have to find someone with one. MAM isn't around and they have not been made for a few years now. When they come up for sale, they are gone in a matter of minutes
Try 505zoom or forcefed. They both have MAM manifolds.
2.0t03speed
Member
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- 08.5 CWP Speed 3
im waitin to see how this one is going to turn out any one want to take some bets?
2.0t03speed
Member
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- 08.5 CWP Speed 3
i think we should throw in the rpm manifold too when its done.
It would be interesting. Since each manifold is kind of different it will be interesting to see how the power to delivered.
Since all the manifolds listed are considered superior by their makers I would say lets see some 10-15psi pulls.
2.0t03speed
Member
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- 08.5 CWP Speed 3
mhmm thats what i was thinking. i want to hear more info about the rpm mani.
