Interesting thing I heard on the radio today...

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The UN helped the US find rocket engines and a few other parts used to make WMD's in Jordan storage yards.

Where oh where did these illegal parts come from?? IRAQ!!

Hmmm...But Iraq said they didn't have them. Well, technically that is true. They were being stored in Jordan and who knows where else for later use after the inspectors left.

Porous borders equals stuff going everywhere quickly with little or no trace of it ever moving...

Just a thought though, how much more has been moved and to where? Not to mention how much of it has moved back into Iraq?
 
Thank God for the UN. Now I feel safe and secure knowing that all those nasty, bad, bad, bad WMDs are out of the bad guys hands. Whew...finally, good sleep to be had tonight.
 
Dimitrios said:
Thank God for the UN. Now I feel safe and secure knowing that all those nasty, bad, bad, bad WMDs are out of the bad guys hands. Whew...finally, good sleep to be had tonight.
LOL!
 
Oh yeah, does that also mean that the US get's like a refund on the WMDs seeing as they sold them to Mr. Sad'am during that little Iran-Iraq war way back when and are now getting them back? I mean, it's like a return, right?

If so, I want some of that refund money. Or a free tank of that yummy Iraqi refined gasoline.

I mean, I think we're deserving of something with all of our due diligence thru. this time of "crisis" and "war". I mean, think of all those sacrafices the general population has made during this time of "war"....bless all those hard working people that had to sacrafice and settle for a Jaguar X-type instead of a BMW 5-series....tragic circumstances.
 
Dimitrios said:
Oh yeah, does that also mean that the US get's like a refund on the WMDs seeing as they sold them to Mr. Sad'am during that little Iran-Iraq war way back when and are now getting them back? I mean, it's like a return, right?

If so, I want some of that refund money. Or a free tank of that yummy Iraqi refined gasoline.

I mean, I think we're deserving of something with all of our due diligence thru. this time of "crisis" and "war". I mean, think of all those sacrafices the general population has made during this time of "war"....bless all those hard working people that had to sacrafice and settle for a Jaguar X-type instead of a BMW 5-series....tragic circumstances.
Dont forget we sold em to Iran also! talk about adding fuel to the fire
 
Although I appreciate the sarcasm, your ignorance is just as laughable.

The parts found in Jordan were parts that were not sold to him by the US...You do understand that Iraq had their own weapons program that went beyond the 1960's technology we sold them back in the 80s?

What is more interesting is that the UN pointed out the small stock pile, while they are under the hammer of an investigation of illegal oil for food deals with France and Iraq that also helped provide Iraq with other weapons and devices that they were not supposed to have after Desert Storm, nor did they have during Desert Storm, and yet there they are this time around...

I wonder what else the UN will tell us about where the WMDs went..

By the way, the US gets very little of its oil from the Middle East, and yet countries that are not a part of OPEC have no say in what they sell oil to us for.

Oh well...
 
StuttersC said:
Although I appreciate the sarcasm, your ignorance is just as laughable.

Yes, quite laughable. I myself could not stop laughing this morning after I paused, smelled the roses, listened to the birds sing, and thought longingly of my comments yesterday as well. Made me just warm and fuzzy all over.

Instinctively, I use sarcasm as a poor defense for my lack of understanding of global political, social, and economic circumstances and consequences. How foolish of me to bring that into the forums like that. Maybe I should watch some more mindless and politically skewed news broadcasts to inform myself better.

I'll have to go on a 23 and 1/2 day fast to reprimand myself for bringing that up - maybe I can wrile up the locals here and have them stone me as well - or maybe I shouldn't vote this year. It's just one vote anyway...it's not like I have some sort of privelage to do so or anything.. Oh the irony of it all...

StuttersC said:
The parts found in Jordan were parts that were not sold to him by the US...You do understand that Iraq had their own weapons program that went beyond the 1960's technology we sold them back in the 80s?


Yeah, I understand. I also understand that the decisions made by Western administrations dating to WW I have had decade long implications on the resource rich, and economically poor, Middle East area. You know that country called "Iraq"...well, see, prior to WW I, it wasn't called "Iraq". See, way back when Coca Cola still contained real cocaine, "Iraq" was called "Persia". It's funny how the nice people in France, England, Denmark, and the US (oh, those crazy Rockafellers!) decided to negotiate new boundaries of this new country based around oil field locations and ease of transportation of said oil to export areas outside of "Iraq".

Hey, keeping those masses at bay for 80 years isn't a bad run...what's a little terrorism or crisis every so often? The economic justification of powering the GREATEST ECONOMY EVER TO GRACE THE PLANET IN A GAZZILLION YEARS is well worth it.

And what of WMDs in the US during the Cold Ware?! NO WAY....those aren't [weren't] REAL nuclear ICBMs..no, no.... They're there to give us a reason to spend gobs of tax payer monies and keep that Evil Empire at bay.....God knows we had so much to worry about. All those nuclear drills were so worth it - ah, memories....

StuttersC said:
By the way, the US gets very little of its oil from the Middle East, and yet countries that are not a part of OPEC have no say in what they sell oil to us for.


Um...........right. I'm not disputing the OPEC issue. I work in the process control field and a lot of our customers are oil refiners and if you think that "very little" means over 45% of gross refining volume from Middle East oil, we can can agree on that too.
 
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StuttersC said:
The UN helped the US find rocket engines and a few other parts used to make WMD's in Jordan storage yards.

Where oh where did these illegal parts come from?? IRAQ!!

Hmmm...But Iraq said they didn't have them.
No, Iraq never said they didn't have them. They were parts from the Al-Salmoud II rockets which Iraq always claimed they had. The UN (and the US) knew about them before the war and ordered Iraq to start destroying them. Obviously they didn't destroy all of them, since some of the parts ended up in Jordan (and Holland).
 
Dimitrios said:
Yes, quite laughable. I myself could not stop laughing this morning after I paused, smelled the roses, listened to the birds sing, and thought longingly of my comments yesterday as well. Made me just warm and fuzzy all over.

Instinctively, I use sarcasm as a poor defense for my lack of understanding of global political, social, and economic circumstances and consequences. How foolish of me to bring that into the forums like that. Maybe I should watch some more mindless and politically skewed news broadcasts to inform myself better.

I'll have to go on a 23 and 1/2 day fast to reprimand myself for bringing that up - maybe I can wrile up the locals here and have them stone me as well - or maybe I shouldn't vote this year. It's just one vote anyway...it's not like I have some sort of privelage to do so or anything.. Oh the irony of it all...



Yeah, I understand. I also understand that the decisions made by Western administrations dating to WW I have had decade long implications on the resource rich, and economically poor, Middle East area. You know that country called "Iraq"...well, see, prior to WW I, it wasn't called "Iraq". See, way back when Coca Cola still contained real cocaine, "Iraq" was called "Persia". It's funny how the nice people in France, England, Denmark, and the US (oh, those crazy Rockafellers!) decided to negotiate new boundaries of this new country based around oil field locations and ease of transportation of said oil to export areas outside of "Iraq".

Hey, keeping those masses at bay for 80 years isn't a bad run...what's a little terrorism or crisis every so often? The economic justification of powering the GREATEST ECONOMY EVER TO GRACE THE PLANET IN A GAZZILLION YEARS is well worth it.

And what of WMDs in the US during the Cold Ware?! NO WAY....those aren't [weren't] REAL nuclear ICBMs..no, no.... They're there to give us a reason to spend gobs of tax payer monies and keep that Evil Empire at bay.....God knows we had so much to worry about. All those nuclear drills were so worth it - ah, memories....



Um...........right. I'm not disputing the OPEC issue. I work in the process control field and a lot of our customers are oil refiners and if you think that "very little" means over 45% of gross refining volume from Middle East oil, we can can agree on that too.
I like how you point out the simple parts of the past that work to serve your point, but fail to mention the things that have happened since then that make your point compeltely irrevlevant. The US had these things back in the 40s, so its ok for a lunatic who kills his own people indescremantly with them too. And its ok for that same guy to invade a country and use these weapons in an attempt to take over a country. Hell why not?

A lot has happened since WWI, but we will fail to recognize those thing as it doesn't fit your view point that the US is the big bad kid on the block who deserves to have assholes fly planes into buildings...After all, we started it, right? No, we shouldn't put the responsibility ont he person who had the people do it...No, we should blame on a good decision from the past and put the blame on the victim...

Hell, why don't we just go so far as to blame those people in those buildings for being there too. Yeah, there we go, didn't those people know that some dumb assholes were going to fly planes into their buildings that day...

I love how you blame the Middle East's problems on the US, when they are the ones who put themselves in the situation in the first place.

And where do you get 45%? The sources I have seen that are credible and have a gloabl view of this issue say 30-some-dd percent...We do not get almost half of our oil from Mid-East countries...
 
StuttersC said:
. . . so its ok for a lunatic who kills his own people indescremantly with them too. And its ok for that same guy to invade a country and use these weapons in an attempt to take over a country. Hell why not? . . .
Uuhhh, I believe he invaded Kuwait ten years ago - you know, Operation Desert Storm, Persian Gulf War - remember? Oh, and the indescremantly (sp.) killing of his own people - that was 10 years ago too, right after we pulled the plug on Schwartzkopf before he reached Bagdad.

I want someone to explain clearly what was Hussein doing a year ago that was so imperative for us to pretty much stop chasing Al-Quaida, and send a lot of manpower to find him in an f-ing hole in the ground!!!

And from what I'm getting here, do you mean to tell me that Hussein is/was more threatening than Bin Laden and his merry band of followers?! Are you saying that its more important to commit 135,000 troops to a place that couldn't even fire an f-ing rocket at our borders, while we have 12,000 troops looking for a group that destroyed two of the world's tallest buildings in one day, and is threatening to do more!?

If that's truly your logic, then I'm completely stunned!!
 
rktktpaul said:
Uuhhh, I believe he invaded Kuwait ten years ago - you know, Operation Desert Storm, Persian Gulf War - remember? Oh, and the indescremantly (sp.) killing of his own people - that was 10 years ago too, right after we pulled the plug on Schwartzkopf before he reached Bagdad.

I want someone to explain clearly what was Hussein doing a year ago that was so imperative for us to pretty much stop chasing Al-Quaida, and send a lot of manpower to find him in an f-ing hole in the ground!!!

And from what I'm getting here, do you mean to tell me that Hussein is/was more threatening than Bin Laden and his merry band of followers?! Are you saying that its more important to commit 135,000 troops to a place that couldn't even fire an f-ing rocket at our borders, while we have 12,000 troops looking for a group that destroyed two of the world's tallest buildings in one day, and is threatening to do more!?

If that's truly your logic, then I'm completely stunned!!

Well, according to the person I quoted, we can blame everything on WWI...

However, Saddam was a threat ten years ago before the Gulf War, and was still a threat less than a year ago when he still had all the stuff that has been hidden away in Jordan, among other places. Every administration has stated that rather bluntly since the Gulf War. But, that is easily forgettable, so is the fact that Clinton made it a Presidential rule basically to get Saddam out of power.

You seem fairly quick to forget that Afghanistan was pretty much taken care of. You do not need a huge number of troops to track one man. If you thin it is necessary, I wonder about how plan things logistically.

You do need a large number of troops to remove an army like what was in Iraq. But I guess that is not really important to you.

Saddam was a threat before he invaded Kuwait (killed people in his country). He was a threat after that as well, more so than Bin Laden while the planning stages for Iraq were being set over a year ago. Yes, the palnning for Iraq began after Afghanistan. Yes, Iraq was set to start after Afghanistan was basically taken care of.

You are kidding yourself if you think Saddam had no way of reaching out and touching us in the US. His money supported a number of terrorist organizations, some of which had links to Al Quaeda. But I guess we will ingore that fact as well.

Hey while we are it, and basically saying that Saddam was not ever really a threat to anyone, then lets ignore the fact that the money he received from France and the UN under the illegal oil for food scandal was going towards terrorist operations and the illegal purchase of weapons and equipment that the UN unanimously agreed he shouldn't have back in the Gulf War times...

I'll drop the sarcasm and make my point as clear as I can, Saddam was a threat before the Gulf War. The UN did not want us to take Iraq over at that time, and so he went back after the people who opposed him. He had a number of chemical, biological and radioligcal weapons in his use durign the Gulf War.

The UN voted that Saddam should not have those weapons. They sent in worthless inspectors. Those inspectors got the run around and booted out. The UN didn't care becuase they were getting oil under tha table with France. Meanwhile, Saddam used that money to fund a number of terrorist operations inside and outside of his own country and purchased more illegal weapons and equipment.

When Bush stood up the UN and France and said that the UN needed to hold up its end of the deal for the stuff they signed ten years ago, it backed down and Bush decided to do something about it.

Because of the bickering between the US and the UN, Saddam had more than enough time to move all of the illegal weapons out of the country. As a matter of fact, sicne the UN is helping us find the stuff, I wouldn't doubt the UN help to hide it in the first place.

So, to say Saddam was not a threat would be incorrect. If he wasn't a threat, then why didn't you go there for a vacation after the Gulf War? Was he more of a threat than Bin Laden. At the time we invaded he sure was. Bin Ladens hands were basically tied. Saddam's weren't.

Because of all the good things that have happened from the invasion of Iraq, the world will be a better place then if we had simply let Saddam do the stuff he was doing.

But by all means, go ahead and believe what you want...The liberal media is not accurate in everything they print or broadcast. And they would sooner rail Bush for invading Iraq than rail Clinton for sitting on his ass four times after terrorists did some serious damage to US citizens and property.
 
Dimitrios said:
Yeah, I understand. I also understand that the decisions made by Western administrations dating to WW I have had decade long implications on the resource rich, and economically poor, Middle East area. You know that country called "Iraq"...well, see, prior to WW I, it wasn't called "Iraq". See, way back when Coca Cola still contained real cocaine, "Iraq" was called "Persia". It's funny how the nice people in France, England, Denmark, and the US (oh, those crazy Rockafellers!) decided to negotiate new boundaries of this new country based around oil field locations and ease of transportation of said oil to export areas outside of "Iraq".
Iraq was never called "Persia" because it never was Persia. Iran is the country that used to be called Persia.

02 DX Millenium Red
 
goldstar said:
Iraq was never called "Persia" because it never was Persia. Iran is the country that used to be called Persia.

02 DX Millenium Red

Sorry, it should be Mesopotamia. My error on that.
 
StuttersC said:
I like how you point out the simple parts of the past that work to serve your point, but fail to mention the things that have happened since then that make your point compeltely irrevlevant. The US had these things back in the 40s, so its ok for a lunatic who kills his own people indescremantly with them too. And its ok for that same guy to invade a country and use these weapons in an attempt to take over a country. Hell why not?

A lot has happened since WWI, but we will fail to recognize those thing as it doesn't fit your view point that the US is the big bad kid on the block who deserves to have assholes fly planes into buildings...After all, we started it, right? No, we shouldn't put the responsibility ont he person who had the people do it...No, we should blame on a good decision from the past and put the blame on the victim...

Hell, why don't we just go so far as to blame those people in those buildings for being there too. Yeah, there we go, didn't those people know that some dumb assholes were going to fly planes into their buildings that day...

I love how you blame the Middle East's problems on the US, when they are the ones who put themselves in the situation in the first place.

And where do you get 45%? The sources I have seen that are credible and have a gloabl view of this issue say 30-some-dd percent...We do not get almost half of our oil from Mid-East countries...

Whoa now...off the high-horse, soap box, clock tower....

I never mentioned anything about Sept. 11th . I never mentioned that anyone was deserving of anything - much less a massacre of thousands in a matter of minutes.

I also didn't blame the Mideast's problems on the US (I recalled I said "Western administrations"). I never said that the US was the "big bad kid on the block".

Also, I never justified Hussiany boy's masochistic habits on his own population. Facists are facists and the dude was [is] one. He should fry with the best of them - but, lest not forget how he got his power to begin with....what once was a good idea...well, no need to get into that spiderhole, now do we?

Personally, the Middle East has brought a lot of their "problems" upon themselves. Once a upon a time, they had progressive views, but with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they fell into a state of non-conformance and thus desolation with respect to the rest of the world.

What I don't agree upon is that they're "jealous of our freedom, etc, etc." and that's why have cowards flying planes into buildings.It's about the almighty dollar sir.

That little Bin Laden guy....remember him (well if you do, most of the population has forgotten...a faded memory for most already), he doesn't give a rats ass about "Jihad" and the "cause" and "martyrs".

He cares about getting his "bank" and not much else. EL Bin Laden Familia isn't exactly shy about their intentions in this world (mucho dinero from mucho petro by way of their construction company) and do whatever they can to do so. If that involves blaming their "hardship" on the US and then sending virgins with TNT strapped to their testicles, that's their justification. But we'll still continue to have them over to the White House as state guests anytime.

And let's overlook the fact that the CIA assisted in helping the members of the Bin Laden family here in the US during the days immediately following Sept. 11th. When all commercial and private jets were grounded, a few private jets zipped around picking up El Familia for quick exit to Saudi Arabia. But damn, that Saudi oil is still mighty tasty!

Turn the other cheek....http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011112fa_FACT3

And yeah, you are right again (hey maybe I shouldn't debate on complicated topics like this any more...I should just practice tying my shoes in one of 11 or 12 different knot styles...) the US has peaked at 25% of MidEast Oil imports. 1/4 is still a goddamned lot http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/pgulf.html
 
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All this is so simple. In the past, the US (including other western countries) have exploited numerous resource rich countries. This included supporting and installing corupt gov'ts. Now certain people (i.e. bin Ladens) with lots of money are pissed off and are causing a bit of trouble (but probably nowhere near what the west has inflicted in the past). Do we deserve this? Well if you believe in capital punishment, then probably yes!!
 
jaman said:
All this is so simple. In the past, the US (including other western countries) have exploited numerous resource rich countries. This included supporting and installing corupt gov'ts. Now certain people (i.e. bin Ladens) with lots of money are pissed off and are causing a bit of trouble (but probably nowhere near what the west has inflicted in the past). Do we deserve this? Well if you believe in capital punishment, then probably yes!!

It's not justified (the "bit of trouble" that you describe). Eye for an eye, eh? atta kid... (yippy)
 
Hey fellas, lets not forget that Bin Laden got his start with the support of the US Government - remember the Mujahadden who fought those pesky ruskies in Afganistan in the late '70s, early '80s. If I remember right, didn't Bin Laden still have a supply of Stinger surface-to-air missles for a while during the mid '90s that were gifts of our government for the purpose of shooting down Russian aircraft during the Afgan war?

And lets also not forget that our own current Secretary of Defense met with the now ousted Iraqi leader on several occasions during the 1980's. Friendly relationship as I recall too!
 
The Bin Laden family has repeatedly denounced Osama for what he has done. Yes the family might comehere, but Osama is not a "part of the family" anymore...
 
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