Independant Throttle Bodies (ITB's/IRTB's)

[Fear]

Nope, there's no way to do it without an EMS... You won't be able to run a MAP without an EMS.

If you wanted to try, all you could do is make a log-style plenum that plugged in, then attached to your MAF. That's about the only way I could think of.

actually, even the uber-cheap s-afc will allow you to convert from MAF to MAP.

 

[flat_black]

actually, even the uber-cheap s-afc will allow you to convert from MAF to MAP.

Not on this car, unfortunatly; This car has odd MAF voltages, and won't output properly for the ECU to read it.

Most cars, yes, you can use a MAP if you use a MAF. The conversion is usually pretty straightforward. But not in this case, unfortunatly. =/

 

[ghetto waggon]

so there is a risk with water/debris running the individual velocity stacks? Thats why the airbox goes on?

 

[flat_black]

There's always a risk of debris getting into the intake tract, if it's not stock, basically. But yes, there is a chance. That's what sock filters are for, or that airbox. Water, though, would be difficult to get in there, since the ITB's will be pointing upward and back toward the firewall.

 

[ghetto waggon]

So there wouldn't be a "need" for them?

I don't believe the ITB s2000 with SSR wheels used an additional airbox

Also, wb the use of nitrous in addition to ITB ?
I really don't know what the optimal compression is for juice, but I figure that would be a pretty sick addition to what you've got going on.

 

[flat_black]

The airbox doesn't need to be there, no. Mine won't have it at all, like I said.

I don't use nitrous, because a) I don't drag race and b) I like to have my powerband consistant. I dislike spikes and jumps in power, and lagging of throttle.

Nitrous is pretty detrimental to the FS-DE engine, anyway, as proven by a few people on here. =) But anyway; I'm staying away from the nitrous, and bumping the compression as much as I can viably do with head works, then, the block gets the royal treatment, eventually; Longer rods, shorter pistons compressing a little more, and some Toga bearings, just in case.

But that's waaaaaay later. You know. When I'm rich. =)

 

[Fear]

Not on this car, unfortunatly; This car has odd MAF voltages, and won't output properly for the ECU to read it.

Most cars, yes, you can use a MAP if you use a MAF. The conversion is usually pretty straightforward. But not in this case, unfortunatly. =/

unfortunately, the MAF/MAP issue is a catch 22. one or the other, and theres bad points. put em together -- even more.


basically, i'm a fan of neither, but mass air is a much better measuring tool on an n/a car. i think ITB's are basically senseless, when a good short-runner manifold will be within a few hp.


i will not disagree, itb's are bad-mofo-ass, but i cant bring myself to make some of the compromises they require. best of luck to you.

 

[flat_black]

Thanks for the good-lucks. =)

But there's two words that make me love ITB's so much: Throttle Response. Oh, man.

 

[Fear]

what mods do you currently have?

 

[flat_black]

Not including the whopping two or three asthetic modifications, of course. =) This is the list:

Injen CAI
Ported Intake Manifold
4-1 Shorty Header
Outlet-Ported Precat
2.25" Downpipe w/HF Cat
2.25" Resonator Section
MazdaSpeed Axle Back
Re-grounded Electrical System
NGK Iridium Plugs
Magnecor Wires
MP3 ECU
AWR Motor Mounts
Kartboy Shifter
Kartboy Bushings
GReddy Counterweight Knob
Bronzoil Shifter Linkage Bushings
Yokohama AVS ES100 (205/50R16) Tires (Summer)
Toyo Observe G-02Plus (195/60R15) Tires (Winter)
15" Gunmetal Mazda 929 Rims for Winter Tires
Mazda 929 1" Bore Brake Master Cylinder
Braided Clutch/Brake Lines
Brembo Cross Drilled Rotors
Axxis Ceramic Sport Pads
Clutchmasters Stage 1 Clutch
Max Front Caster Dialed
Racing Beat 20mm Rear Swaybar

 

[Fear]

hope you're gonna mod some more -- make those itb's worth it.

 

[flat_black]

Like I mentioned, I'm getting new cams and a modified head to go with it. I'm just making these for the winter time.

Oh, right... And the standalone. =) I think that'll make the biggest difference overall. There's no need to mod anything else right now, as I need a REASON to mod anything else. Pretty much, only major upgrades from here out.

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest I do? As, I've pretty much done all I need to/intended to, short of these next few major steps.

 

[Fear]

first, i would recommend an equal length 4-1 header. equal length means better response, and good powerband area. 4-2-1 = crap. i have yet to see worthy results from this design.

second, if you're interested in internals, but come a bit short on know-how, or cash, you could always get the head milled to bump up the compression.

what stand alone are you getting? if you havent decided, make sure you get one with a VERY good ignition system.

valves -- a touchy topic, but spend money wisely. a bad set of valves will ruin everything.

run a straight pipe when you can. cats suck. in NH, shouldnt be too much of a hassle. IL is fairly lenient, and i get away with it every day.


more suggestions when i get home, but im leaving work....NOW.

 

[flat_black]

Should read through the thread some more, but here's a quick response. =)

I am running an equal length header; 4-1, 22" primaries at 1 3/8", custom made (Made by Traveler) header. The whole exhaust isn't stock, in fact. Not a single piece of it. =)

The head milling thing will be very light; I'm actually welding up the quench area of the head, which in turn increases compression and decreases detonation; The head is actually my next mod that's going onto the car. I'm getting a good set of custom made valves (Probably not too far from stock, though), with a little seat work done, and a good chunk of port work done on the intake and exhaust ports. I should be pushing close to 10.5:1 compression, if the volume changes appropriatly, as I've predicted.

I am most likely going with either the AEM or a Haltech, at this point. It remains to be seen exactly which, depending on cost and features, ad-nausium.

As I mentioned, my whole exhaust is modified, and I'm only running a single cat, now, and even that is a high flow cat. You should hear the car; It's full of burps, and pops, and the idle's nice and lumpy, even though I upped it to about 850rpm.

The car is hardly 'lightly' modified, but I've reached a standstill until I get the big money dumped into the head. That will be next. Oh yes. It will be mine. Muaha.

 

[Gen1GT]

first, i would recommend an equal length 4-1 header. equal length means better response, and good powerband area. 4-2-1 = crap. i have yet to see worthy results from this design.

Thank you. I've been preaching this for years, and no-one ever listens. a 4-2-1 header is a compromise, not the other way around.

Well, it looks like we have another big player in the NA Protege game. Out of no-where, flat back gets serious. Which is a good thing. It looks like your mods are sorted out and it's good that you have a gameplan. There are a few 1st Gen guys wondering why they make less power with more mods compared to me, and it's because I've had a gameplan from the beginning. I believe you need to do mods that compliment each other, rather than just hoping off the shelf stuff works.

I'm getting my IRTBs next month, but probably won't have my Haltech installed til the spring. So if you get a Haltech before me, I'll be able to learn from your set-up. I'm thinking that all of us guys doing the serious builds should all get the same ECU, since we can help each other with tuning problems. Kind of like how at least 50% of the Miata guys run Links.

 

[Gen1GT]

Here's a good way to improve quench and increase compression ratio at the same time...

http://members.aol.com/solomiata2/newchamber1.jpg

 

[flat_black]

Rawk. =) That picture is exactly what I have in mine, only with one difference; The sides of the chamber will be brought in to form sort of a cloverleaf design, since that'll bump compression a tiny bit more, too!

I don't think I'd be able to take on this project if I hadn't thought it out... 'Cause doing this by trial and error alone is a good way to go broke, as far as I've found. =)

 

[Fear]

Should read through the thread some more, but here's a quick response. =)

I am running an equal length header; 4-1, 22" primaries at 1 3/8", custom made (Made by Traveler) header. The whole exhaust isn't stock, in fact. Not a single piece of it. =)

The head milling thing will be very light; I'm actually welding up the quench area of the head, which in turn increases compression and decreases detonation; The head is actually my next mod that's going onto the car. I'm getting a good set of custom made valves (Probably not too far from stock, though), with a little seat work done, and a good chunk of port work done on the intake and exhaust ports. I should be pushing close to 10.5:1 compression, if the volume changes appropriatly, as I've predicted.

I am most likely going with either the AEM or a Haltech, at this point. It remains to be seen exactly which, depending on cost and features, ad-nausium.

As I mentioned, my whole exhaust is modified, and I'm only running a single cat, now, and even that is a high flow cat. You should hear the car; It's full of burps, and pops, and the idle's nice and lumpy, even though I upped it to about 850rpm.

The car is hardly 'lightly' modified, but I've reached a standstill until I get the big money dumped into the head. That will be next. Oh yes. It will be mine. Muaha.

i SHOULD read the whole post. but that involves more thinking. (bang)

anyways, a few suggestions. the aem and haltech, albeit both good choices, you should think about electromotive. the tec-II will be enough, and offers a buttload more features than the AEM. the tec-III might be overkill, and it's a general pain in the ass to tune (but i like it).

as far as exhaust, i happened to notice the word pre-cat being used. explain?

and i hope yours sounds good ---- mine sounds like somebody poured crack into my gas tank -- terrible. but it's ok.

dont forget the block and transaxle. the head is vital, but there are parts you may overlook in your quest for power. do yourself a favor and do a bottom end rebuild.


more on this later, im off to do my brakes. .........damn brakes, hate em so much.

 

[Fear]

btw, buy a graduate level physics book with a good section on airflow. you may be surprised.

 

[flat_black]

I have a couple sitting around from some classes I took. =) Fluid dynamics rocks.

I'm mostly thinking about the AEM because of it's WBO2 tuning features, really, and the PnP install. I'll poke around at the TEC-2, though, if I can find a good page on it, and a cheap place to get it. =)