I think Turkey is good......

[BremertonMSP]

After all the different BPV/BOV setups I have tried, there is no doubt in my mind that the noise is compressor surge. There is just no other explanaition that makes sense to me after doing the things I did.

If some of you don't feel that this is a problem, that's fine, but don't rely on the fact that some rally cars make the same noise. Racing teams have the money to replace things that fail, and will sacrifice some reliability for performance if they need to.

But why would they also knowingly jeprodize finishing a race by using a setup that would cause a race ending failure? Especially when it can be prevented with no loss of power?

I on the other hand do not want to risk having to spend the money on a new turbo as I know that mazda will not cover it with the mods I have done. It is important to me to prolong the life of anything under the hood for this reason.

Again, why would Mazda risk having to replace a bunch of turbos, when the supposid fix is just a bigger bpv and pipes? That just doesn't make good business sence.

Listen to these clips again, and tell me which car sounds healthier:

Before:
http://www.wpi.edu/~jck15243/MOV00495.MPG

After:
http://www.mazdamp3.com/members/505zoom/mov00533.mpg

Don't think that just because the turbo setup was designed by callaway, that mazda didn't stray from the specs, thus causing this problem. Look at what mazda did with racing beat's plans for the rear suspension. Based on some of your guy's logic, I could say that racing beat would never design a suspension that clunked.

Excellent point. Can't argue with that.

 

[Notorious]

Regarding the pcm problems. Talking to the senior marketing guy, he said the car was released and designed in a little over a year, which is pretty much unheard of for any car company. So he conceited the fact that there were quite a few problems that made it into production that normally wouldn't if more time was allocated to do more research and development.

 

[Notorious]

But why would they also knowingly jeprodize finishing a race by using a setup that would cause a race ending failure? Especially when it can be prevented with no loss of power?



Again, why would Mazda risk having to replace a bunch of turbos, when the supposid fix is just a bigger bpv and pipes? That just doesn't make good business sence.




Excellent point. Can't argue with that.

Compressor surge is not an immediate failure. Its more for the longetivity of the turbo. The car will make the race without failing from compressor surge. Same engine for the entire year? probably not.

The compressor surge in our cars under stock boost you probably won't have a problem. I can't guarantee it but running only 6 psi is not a whole lot, and its should be more than sufficient to get the turbo past the warranty mark. I'm willing to bet if you leave the car stock you'll get your turbo over the 100k mark with proper maintanence.

 

[505zoom]

But why would they also knowingly jeprodize finishing a race by using a setup that would cause a race ending failure? Especially when it can be prevented with no loss of power?

I don't think that even massive compressor surge would be enough to finish a turbo over the course of a race.

Again, why would Mazda risk having to replace a bunch of turbos, when the supposid fix is just a bigger bpv and pipes? That just doesn't make good business sence.

I agree with you that it doesn't make good business sense, but mazda has proven that they have none by releasing bushing after bushing(A-E) to fix the clunk, when the problem is not even the bushing itself. I honestly think that mazda would give us all new turbos before they redesigned the BPV/piping

Excellent point. Can't argue with that.

 

[ThrillRide]

well here goes my .02.

i have done plenty of research on turbos and i can gurantee that this is compresor surge. doesn't really matter if you like the sound. the fact of the matter is that over time it will damage your car. turbo surge has been defined for years now as a cyclic, flutter, "turkey" or whatever sound. That is a fact. some have said that surge can be caused by the type of compressor turbine, or the WG and the one we all like to talk about the BPV and BOV. all three of these can be a producer of surge. since 505 has done more research than any of you and has been sucessful so why would you argue the fact that it is surge. some of you are so quick to believe in companies. so what callaway was involved that means jack. R&D companes are full of people, people who can make mistakes or simple oversites. Mazda is behind the game on street cars like it or not. just cause one person says yes and one says no you follow. do your own research and figure out and quit relying on others to fix it for you.

someone here also said that because these big rigs turbo diesel trucks dont have BPV and they are runing fine then there is no reason to doubt our car. WRONG! fact is the bigs rigs all have surge problems. look around and i promis you will find plenty of products out there to reduce turbo surge in big rigs. also one of the most common things replaced in those big rigs is turbine wheels that have been bent due to surge. hmmmm

i'm not busting anyones balls here, but this topic is talked about over and over. if you like the sound keep it. if you don't like it fix it. fact of the matter is the sound is produced by a problem. you may never have a problem with it. so good for you and i hope that is the case for all of us with this car. but the sound is NOT a good thing. I will be fixing mine in this new year. its just too bad i will have to do it myself and not have the company that screwed the pooch fix it for free.

peace

 

[ThrillRide]

dealers cut corners plain and simple. there bottom line is money and their best interst aka covering their ass. and they have had to replace a number of turbos already in this car. all of you might want to go look under your car right now and see if you have oil on the bottom of your turbo.

 

[girth]

First off, why someone calls it a turkey is beyond me. It sounds NOTHING like a ******* Turkey. Has anyone here actually ever heard a turkey?

We have turkeys coming out of our a-holes here in Wisconsin and all I know is that the surge sounds very much like a turkey's gobble. I guess turkeys sound different in Canada...or your surge sounds different from mine.

 

[rocketspeed]

Callaway in my eyes is a far cry from a world-class company. Would a world class company use that bad intercooler, plastic pipes, and pisspoor bpv?

Less than a world class company? I doubt many folks no more about turbocharges engines than those guys.

They may have to make comprimises on cars like the MSP due to PRICE- that's why you have plastic plumbing and such. They have to trade price and performance and find the proper balance. That's what the MSP is all about- its a balanced car for short money. The Focus SVT is very similar. Good handling, good power, good brakes, short money. You can get more power, you can get more handling in other places- but you'll have to dig a good deal deeper into your wallet.

They know what they're doing. Take a look at their track record.

 

[servoeyes]

Yeah...let's get this straight.

Look at a Callaway C5 or the c12...what we have with the MSP is all about pricing and US safety standards. The intercooler is used on European Diesel 323s...cost concern. Lowered the price significantly on production. Plastic pipes...this is due to crash testing...they would have to retest the car with hard pipes. The BPV, on a side note, is not a crappy product. It is the same Denso BPV that was used on RX-7s stock. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the stock products...but the ECU tuning is what turned out to be problematic...and that was Mazda's work, not Callaway's.

 

['Sploder]

I concur with ^^. Performance cars that cost what the MSP and the SVT focus do often suffer from the parts bin curse. If this is what allows Mazda to give a lower price, then so be it. I would not be so lucky to own such a great car if it had costed more.

 

[yashooa]

Less than a world class company? I doubt many folks no more about turbocharges engines than those guys.

They may have to make comprimises on cars like the MSP due to PRICE- that's why you have plastic plumbing and such. They have to trade price and performance and find the proper balance. That's what the MSP is all about- its a balanced car for short money. The Focus SVT is very similar. Good handling, good power, good brakes, short money. You can get more power, you can get more handling in other places- but you'll have to dig a good deal deeper into your wallet.

They know what they're doing. Take a look at their track record.

MotorTrends MSP preview in OCT 2002 had a pick of the MSP with the hood up and it had HARDPIPES!
I notice also that it was a couple tenths faster than most production MSP's. So I believe that Mazda screwed the pooch on the pipes and intercooler at least ... I mean it is a part from their European parts bin (according to MotorTrend.)
Callaway was given the materials in most part and told to make it work. They did not get to pick and choose.
As far as "World Class" goes tell me another car maker that produced a pump gas, street driven, 880 horse Corvette that would go 258MPH and the acceleration from 190MPH to 230MPH would PIN YOU TO YOUR SEAT? They can, have and will continue to make great tuner cars for those who allow them to do so.
Mazda supplied them dogfood to cook with and they tried their best to make caviar. Of course it is a really high qaulity dogfood not an offbrand maybe in line with Alpo
All in all I like my car and I don't feel threaten in the least by surge, yeah it may or may not be there but I haven't seen anything but rabid speculation and FUD in regards to cause, and not really any hard evidence of it's existence. So far at 12 PSI at over a 100miles a day it has been great. What you fail to take into account is driving style when you say it won't last. If I am in vacuum 90% of the time short shifting and preserving my gas mileage then odds are my car / turbo will last far longer than a "mad driving 2 fast 2 mentally challenged" driver's car will.
I think this is the quintessential Mountain out of a mole hill scenario.
But hey I am just a writer / computer freak who likes his car.
L8ter surge hounds

 

[ricenudles]

some of you are so quick to believe in companies. so what callaway was involved that means jack. R&D companes are full of people, people who can make mistakes or simple oversites.

ThrillRide pretty much hit it right on the nose.

Yeah, companies aren't perfect, and in fact do make "mistakes." Through the eyes of the consumer, the turkey problem is a stupid and a ridiculous mistake on Mazda's behalf. However, to the financial advisers at Mazda, not fixing the problem MAY have proved to be more beneficial to the company's pockets (especially when the company has been facing constant loss in revenue and profit ever since the late 90's). Mazda has been walking on a thin rope for the past few years hence selling corporate stocks to foriegn investors (i.e. ford).

People at Mazda aren't stupid (at least not incredibly stupid). Mazda maximized profit by focusing more on attracting the average customer into purchasing the vehicle. They did their market research by taking in to account of several different factors. Some possible factors could be that the average consumer doesnt know much about turbo cars, the average turbo failure on the prototype msp occured after the expiration of warranty, etc.

Companies exist for one sole reason -- to make money. Nothing else matters. The nature of business is to, well, get business. Once you have business, you try to get more. Main point is that money makes the world go 'round. Make as much as you can, as fast as you can.

I'm just saying, maybe this is their way of seeing things? Then again, maybe not.

 

[Notorious]

By the way, talking to the people who designed the car at mazda r&d the hardpipes were removed due to durability issues more than crash testing. The prototype had stiffer motor mounts along with the hardpipes. I wish we could have took a picture of this thing. Also one interesting thing was that the car was originally a white ES. Then it became a black 03 msp. Then at seven stock it was a blue 03.5. The inside of it was still mostly 03. Like the gauges and the shifter. But the seats were 03.5.

 

[Dexter]

think about this logically. since 505zoom eliminated the sound, that means its NOT a characteristic of the turbo...otherwise, it would make that sound no matter what you do to the piping/valves.

the only thing i can see it being is surge. it has to be, what else is it then?

 

[ThrillRide]

dexter great point! if you all think it is not surge then what is it? several have back up that says it is surge, yet no one that says its not surge has come up with any proof of it being anything but surge.

 

[yashooa]

[B
the only thing i can see it being is surge. it has to be, what else is it then? [/B]

Turkeycentric Turboessence.
Ah yes that winged delectable oversized prairie chicken, great on a plate and in your car. MMMM hmmmm, now that's good driving.
Oh yeah , that tastes just like a Mazdaspeed.
(lick) (godown) (lick)

 

[zzooomm]

I love my turkey and would be sad if it went away!

 

[oldzoomer]

I still haven't seen enough proof that the turkey is a harmful. If it was I'd be getting Mazda to fix it. If this turbo lasts until the warranty is up I'll still consider the car a good investment. I'm sure the business people took this into consideration and have evaluated the risk of having a recall. If they believe the turkey won't cost them money then I'm not going to spend money to fix it. I still think for an economy car the Mazdaspeed is a great value. AND I STILL LOVE THE TURKEY!

 

[ThrillRide]

just curious....do you have a MSP? your sig says 91 lx

 

[vodapas77]

I still haven't seen enough proof that the turkey is a harmful. If it was I'd be getting Mazda to fix it. If this turbo lasts until the warranty is up I'll still consider the car a good investment. I'm sure the business people took this into consideration and have evaluated the risk of having a recall. If they believe the turkey won't cost them money then I'm not going to spend money to fix it. I still think for an economy car the Mazdaspeed is a great value. AND I STILL LOVE THE TURKEY!

Exactly,

This is what 505Zoom has been saying. A Speed driven normally for say the average life of 80-100K will not see a signifigant amount of turbo damage/failure on the whole. However, those who simply get an MBC at turn it up to 15psi as a daily driver and take it to the track without making any other mods are going to see premature turbo failure.

While a turbo is a great invention that allows small engines to do far more than what they would be capable of in NA form, it is in a way slightly self destructive. Thus the reason factory turbos did not become common on average passenger cars until after the advent of computer controlled engines. Ask anyone who owns a Mustang SVO about this. The whole marketing scheme of that car was that it was the first "predictable" turbo available to the average buyer. Before that it was mainly exotics that offered turbos. The simple fact is Turbos create heat, greater than atmospheric pressure, and high RPMS. That my friends is the list of things that kill engines. However, properly monitored and controlled through the computer, BOV, and wastegate working together, the detriment is far less than the gain.

That is exactly what I assume Mazda designed. This car had little over a year to be designed, tested and released to market. Thus the reason they used the MP3 suspension even though it had known flaws. Callaway used as to my understanding a modified MP3 with an FSDE to tune their turbo. As we have all heard this car had hard pipes, a better FMIC, and I would guess a better BPV. After testing was done the specs and basic design were sent back to Mazda and MazdaSpeed of America. Note, not MazdaSpeed of Japan. Our beloved bastard was hands off to those guys. There is a reason for this. If MS of Japan had designed the car Mazda brass would have had far less oversight of the finished product. So, in this case Mazda got to make the calls and MazdaSpeed of America just had to make sure it was legal for sale in America.

Now comes time to pinch those pennies. So, say hello to ribbed plastic pipes. Cheaper to make, cheaper to replace. Bye, bye big BPV/BOV. Hello tiny lil FMIC from euro-spec diesal powered Protege. What's that make? Our car.

I don't hate Mazda for doing this, because it goes back to my original point. Yes, I have one digression and all. They made a car that performed well out of the box and handled great. They did it in a short period of time on limited funds. And, whether we want to believe it or not it will be fine for the average driver for it's life time. Well, minus the clunk, but so it goes. They make numerous TSBs for that and A-E bushings as a joke/attempt to make it work.

So, what is this 5:30 AM ramble all about. The basic points everyone has been arguing condensed into one.

-Callaway is a fine company, they have their flaws like everyone else, but the product they made was basically what we wanted.

-Mazda Brass did what brass does. They found the most cost efficent way to produce a car (which we all happily bought, no gun to head here) which performs well and has yet to kill anyone due to manufacturer flaw.

-This car driven day to day in a conservative manner by an average driver more than suffices what it claimed it would.

-The Turkey is compressor surge. No I didn't cover this but 505Zoom has as I have many times.

-The Turkey will not make the turbo blow up or run away with your wife.

-The turkey can and should be killed by those of us who are looking to get into the low 13's. Lots of boost + Turkey makes for unhappy turbo down the road.

-Finally, if you like the Turkey great. Who doesn't love turkey. What would Thanksgiving be without it? However, it has been proven that the Turkey is compressor surge. It is here and it was on the DG63 DSMs. I have heard it there too. Just not as funny as ours. If you love it and want to keep stock boost. Great. Cut me off a slice, I might get hungry after I have killed mine. If you want to turn it up and leave the turkey. More power to you. Mabey your turbo will suffer mabey it won't. You can then thumb your noses at us.

Ok, enough. Need nicotine, caffeine, etc.

Love ya guys, have fun. Peace, love and nappiness.