GI: Coming soon! Manual Boost control w/ creep and wastegate control

Quick update for you guys.... I'm sending out one of the prototype wastegate controllers this week to have it tested on another car. Our testing shows this version seems to work pretty good, so I want to verify it on someone elses car. I'll let you know what I find out when I hear back!

Thanks,

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
we took a bunch but the ended up blurry and crappy. My brother is doing more tomorrow supposedly. He has been behind on web and picture updates. I handle all the building and technical stuff... but soon. I'll get on his case about it. Check the website tomorrow evening/afternoon and hopefully they'll be on the products page finally.

Thanks for the patience though!

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
if it's similar to the one in the greddy pic... just curious as to what you are using? the greddy is very similar to the turbonetics (only the greddy is billet)... that style/design is identical to the preassure controller that comes on a dewalt air compressor.

if that is your starting point... im curious as to what modifications have been made to the unit to make it more stable?

I used the turbonetics (rebadged dewalt) and it was horrendous to set, and spiked like mad...

harder spring? bleeder hole?

Please do not take this as picking apart the product... the reason I am asking is because I have a greddy profec-b spec II and love it, but i have had issues with people bumping the unit w/ their knee while getting out of my car after usin it to run to the store... next thing i know i get in and i hit 15psi because i forgot to check my settings!

If this product is as you say and has the same wastegate controlling feature (i.e i allow my wastegate to start opening at 4psi while my boost level is set to 8psi) and it works well without having to bend over backwards to get it set right... I may sell off my profec and go with this in order to prevent this quasi-reoccurring "knee-bump boost increase"

-Toole
 
TooleBox said:
if it's similar to the one in the greddy pic... just curious as to what you are using? the greddy is very similar to the turbonetics (only the greddy is billet)... that style/design is identical to the preassure controller that comes on a dewalt air compressor.

if that is your starting point... im curious as to what modifications have been made to the unit to make it more stable?

I used the turbonetics (rebadged dewalt) and it was horrendous to set, and spiked like mad...

harder spring? bleeder hole?

Please do not take this as picking apart the product... the reason I am asking is because I have a greddy profec-b spec II and love it, but i have had issues with people bumping the unit w/ their knee while getting out of my car after usin it to run to the store... next thing i know i get in and i hit 15psi because i forgot to check my settings!

If this product is as you say and has the same wastegate controlling feature (i.e i allow my wastegate to start opening at 4psi while my boost level is set to 8psi) and it works well without having to bend over backwards to get it set right... I may sell off my profec and go with this in order to prevent this quasi-reoccurring "knee-bump boost increase"

-Toole
Click to expand...
It is very similar to the stuff you mention above. The big "difference" is that the cfm throughput, the self-relieving settings of the nature of the valve, and the pressure range of the regulator were very carefully selected because we found all of the above problems in our other tests with other regulators and so forth. We do not physically modify the component other than appearance things, checking it over, and installing all the necessary plugs and fittings. You could in theory find this regulator and do the same thing yourself but we priced it low enough that you'd save about 6 bucks doing it yourself unless you have just the right sources and get just the right parts. :) Put it this way, we've sold 10 of them, and we still are negative on our investment.

I know that the greddy and the turbonetics and so forth are functionally identical, but I don't believe they hold the boost to a certain pressure before passing it, and neither does ours. When we were using of the regulators that is probaly similar to the turbonetics one we saw a lot of problems with spiking, difficulty to set and so forth... it was horrible! Basically these regulators are designed to create a pressure differential. If you use an air compressor you can understand this a little easier. If you have anything above 50 psi that you set the regulator to, you still only get 50 psi out of the hose. Anything under 50 psi and you get whatever that tank pressure is. If the regulator/ MBC held the boost and was used this way you'd get bad things. It's confusing to think about, but imagine if you got all the air through until 4 psi (or even worse... none!) and the regulator was set at 4 psi... then what would happen would be that no matter how high things got boost wise the wastegate would only see 4 psi! EEK! So the turbo would produce as much boost as possible at that wastegate opening... it could be 8 psi it could be 30 psi! Bad no matter what. So the MBC/regulator is used a little different and adjusted in reverse and instead of holding the boost lets it all through but trims off a little when it starts to get close to the setting on the MBC. So say you were setting your msp to 8 psi from 6 psi stock. The wastegate will get all the pressure up until say around 4 psi. Then it gets trimmed a little bit until the boost pressure reaches 8 psi and then the wastegate sees 6 psi and the boost is held. What happens is the regulator generates a pressure differential.

To some small extent you are closing an orifice and will limit boost flow and will improve your spool up time just with that controller. SMP3000 noticed a marked difference when he installed our MBC. Much improved spool up time. However because of the nature of the component it can't completely improve the spool time. That's why we have been working on a secondary valve. The secondary valve (aka wastegate controller) will work totally different. It will attempt to remain completely closed until a certain psi, at which point it cracks open and allows pressure to start to build on the other side of it. By doing that you can effectively limit when the wastegate will open. Some cheap wastegate controllers work this way, but it leads to spiking and so forth (think about what happens if you are trying to hold 6 psi for boost but the valve doesn't open until 5 psi... you will overshoot and get a spike. Also the spring and ball can move and so forth and you'll change the pressure drop and lose consistency). Combining the valve with the regulator should give you the best possible overall manual controller performance you can get!

Let me know if I can answer anything else,

Thanks!

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
Last edited:
And alternative option we could provide for you toolebox that could solve your problem is the creep eliminator. It can also be used as a bit of a fail safe for maximum boost for things like that. You can install it and set it up so that it allows what you want for a maximum and then if the ebc ever tries to go above it the manual valve will actually override that and you won't get overboosting...
 
yeah... all the theories of boost control are definately there... you have done some good research! :)

my EBC has a limiter, but the way i have it set is to only dump 3% off my set valve control... so if i hit 9psi, it'll dump the valve down a bit...

could you explain how your creep controller works? will it work in conjunction with my profec b?

the issue w/ the profec's warning/limiter is this...

if i set the limiter at 8.5psi, it will not function until 9psi... that isnt an issue as i learned quickly that my warning/limiter was functioning .5psi behind schedule... so setting it to limit and maintain the boost i want was easily acheived...

most people will set their limiter to dump 100% at limiter... but this is no good as you have this rolling wave of boost from 5psi-whatever you are spiking to... up, dump, up, dump, up, dump (you get the picture)

if i could utilize your creep controller to dump at say 9.5psi... i could maintain my greddy settings while using yours as a failsafe.

what exactly did you utilize as a creep controller? I have been tossing aroun d some ideas on doing a secondary boost source going to the wastegate (as well as my boost controller source t'd just before the wastegate...) then in that secondary boost source utilize a preassure switch that will upen at say 9.5psiwhich would bypass the boost controller and dump the wastegate... but that will be a real pain in the butt to get functioning properly and would also require me to intentionally overboost to test it... and I am not too keen on the idea of intentional overboosting past "safe" levels.

anyways, I appreciate any info on the creep control setup you can offer...

now into thread hijack mode

******hijack on******

have you guys considered maybe developing a small wastegate shim... lets say 1/8-3/16" thick that could wedge the wastegate out a bit causing a couple pounds more resistence causing the wastegate to fully dump at say 8psi all day long?

this could be a great modification for those who want to mildly up their boost while appearing "stock" for those who are worried about warranty (as well as those who dont want to monkey around with adjusting boost controllers)

just an idea :)

******hijack off******
 
TooleBox said:
yeah... all the theories of boost control are definately there... you have done some good research! :)

my EBC has a limiter, but the way i have it set is to only dump 3% off my set valve control... so if i hit 9psi, it'll dump the valve down a bit...

could you explain how your creep controller works? will it work in conjunction with my profec b?

the issue w/ the profec's warning/limiter is this...

if i set the limiter at 8.5psi, it will not function until 9psi... that isnt an issue as i learned quickly that my warning/limiter was functioning .5psi behind schedule... so setting it to limit and maintain the boost i want was easily acheived...

most people will set their limiter to dump 100% at limiter... but this is no good as you have this rolling wave of boost from 5psi-whatever you are spiking to... up, dump, up, dump, up, dump (you get the picture)

if i could utilize your creep controller to dump at say 9.5psi... i could maintain my greddy settings while using yours as a failsafe.

what exactly did you utilize as a creep controller? I have been tossing aroun d some ideas on doing a secondary boost source going to the wastegate (as well as my boost controller source t'd just before the wastegate...) then in that secondary boost source utilize a preassure switch that will upen at say 9.5psiwhich would bypass the boost controller and dump the wastegate... but that will be a real pain in the butt to get functioning properly and would also require me to intentionally overboost to test it... and I am not too keen on the idea of intentional overboosting past "safe" levels.

anyways, I appreciate any info on the creep control setup you can offer...

now into thread hijack mode

******hijack on******

have you guys considered maybe developing a small wastegate shim... lets say 1/8-3/16" thick that could wedge the wastegate out a bit causing a couple pounds more resistence causing the wastegate to fully dump at say 8psi all day long?

this could be a great modification for those who want to mildly up their boost while appearing "stock" for those who are worried about warranty (as well as those who dont want to monkey around with adjusting boost controllers)

just an idea :)

******hijack off******
Click to expand...
Well your "hijack" is actually very welcome because those kinds of ideas are the things that we want to get from people and develop for you. Also as an added incentive we'll give whoever comes up with the idea at least that idea for free, and probably something else as we can afford. (Being negative in the dollars makes that a little harder right now! LOL).

Working backwards through your post....

You have the theory right on how to do the creep eliminator. Basically it is in parallel with the boost controller and allows a secondary path for the pressure to "travel" around the controller. By using an inline valve that will open somewhat progressively near the pressure limit you want you can dampen the system response and eliminate the overboost. It is actually easy and safe to set when done properly without requiring overboost. You actually start out where it lets so much air past so early that the EBC can't hit high levels, and rather gets pulled down to your "stock" level. Then you adjust it out until the you just hit the EBC controlled boost level. You can at your risk go slightly past that if you have a good feel for it, otherwise leave it right at that point and you should never see an overboost. All that is happening at that point that is "negative" is your spool response at the very top may be slightly limited. Our testing showed it was negligible and not of concern.

You just have to find the right kind of valve and right fittings and the like. Then you are all set to go.

I have a Profec and tried setting the controls similar to what you did as well as a dozen other things.. but the spec-II doesn't seem to do work and I'll overbosot by a good 7 psi without a problem... part of why I made the creep eliminator!

Hope that helps!

Later,

Steve
 
ya know... i feel pretty stupid now... i just reread my post as well as your response... it sure does make a whole lot more sense to start low and work UP to desired boost instead of starting high... lol

chalk it up to a brainfart!

as for the wastegate shim... if you all can do one up to hold a strong 8psi... i'd be all over it(bowdown)
 
Some final testing on the spool controller has been getting done this last week. Results sounded good so far. Spool up time was improved, and no other issues were encountered. I'd like to ship one or two this coming week to interested parties and see how they fare using the part as well. Then assuming that goes smoothly it'll be open season on the spool controllers. Sorry it has taken so long to get to this point and I greatly appreciate all your patience!

Thanks,

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
on your website you have listed a wastegate control, is this the same as the spool controller? I'm not to good with this stuff but it all sold me. I'm in the market for a MBC and i stumbled upon yours. It all sounds good and i will most likely purchase your items once they are all available. I will only need help on the adjustments. I plan on running 10 PSI at the most ever and i would not know how much to adjust the creep controller or the wastegate control. Thanks for your work.
 
31R said:
on your website you have listed a wastegate control, is this the same as the spool controller? I'm not to good with this stuff but it all sold me. I'm in the market for a MBC and i stumbled upon yours. It all sounds good and i will most likely purchase your items once they are all available. I will only need help on the adjustments. I plan on running 10 PSI at the most ever and i would not know how much to adjust the creep controller or the wastegate control. Thanks for your work.
Click to expand...
The wastegate controller and the spool controller are the same thing, just different names for the same function. The MBC is available now, and the wastegate controller is very nearly available (it's ready, I just want to finish some last tests before I release it widely). The adjustments are very very easy as long as you take your time! But I would be there to answer any questions and help you out as need be!

When you are ready let me know and I'll get parts out to you in short fashion.

Thanks!

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
From the first few infos you posted, your MBC seem to be installed near the header upstream of the signal split to the BPV. Is this correct ? If so, can you advise if it has some influence on the opening of the BPV. Mine seem to open under WOT at 5 to 6 psi (stock boost). Can you also post some pictures of the installation.

Thanks.
 
Yes, on stock MSP's we install it up by the intake manifold upstream of the signal split to the BPV. This does then affect the behavior of the bypass valve. It ends up causing the entire system to act just as it does in stock form, but at a higher pressure level. Both the wastegate and the bypass believe they are at stock levels. Some people have reinstalled other brand MBC's this way and it has eliminated problems for them in several cases.

I won't be able to provide pictures of installation until early next week as I'll be out of town this weekend (but checking email and the forum as much as I can). After I get back into town I'll try and get some installation pictures available. Unless, one of my customers has pictures they want to post of their installation. Otherwise I'll get on it as soon as I can.

Thanks!

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
yes, it seems to make it more consistent and accurate... it also helps modify the bypass valve behavior which seems to be beneficial as well.
 
Last edited:
Well good news guys. I just need to let the last installation run a couple days to ensure that things remain consistent and then we will be good to go on the spool controller. StuttersC has had good results so far and mad props to him for being a massive help to me and trying these parts out for us! He saw a good improvement in spool up time, but I'll let him comment as he sees fit regarding how he felt about the product, and how much of a benefit there was or wasn't in each of the parts.

After we let things run for a few days in StuttersC's car then I'll be opening sales on the spool controller as well!

Thanks SO much to all of you for your patience and even bigger thanks to DominoY2k1, SMP3000, and StuttersC for the testing they've done for me! Also to anyone else I may have missed for any reason too :)

Thanks!

Steve
sales@nsnmotorsports.com
 
For those who haven't seen the kit components.. here is an ok picture of it:


MBCkit.jpg
 
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