FS-DE and FS-DET question

[E38]

My friend bought a 2003 Mazdaspeed Protege, and within 24hrs, a rod snapped and broke through the engine block. The seller will replace the block, but what we don't know is if there's a difference with the N/A block and the turbo block. My own research suggest that there isn't a difference in the block, but I wan't to hear from you guys before I answer that question.

He's prepared to put forged pistons and rods in for the rebuild, which we will do ourselves. We are both new to this platform, so any suggestions on good rods and pistons for this engine would also be welcome.

I'm suggesting that he keep the stock compression and run a GT28R with 450cc injectors. I think we decided that 310 to 350hp would be sufficient. But we are only in the initial stages of the game plan. The most important thing at this point is getting the block. I will also recommend that he replace the clutch and flywheel while were in there, but like I said, the block is the most important issue, as we won't start pulling the engine until we've sourced the block.

Thank you all in advance for your input and suggestions. He's from Honduras and mostly speaks Spanish, so I'll be keeping the forum updated on progress and pictures.


Aaron

 

[E38]

This is a snap shot of the car, just so we have a starting point with this thing. I hope I hear from someone pretty soon. The faster we know about that that block, the faster we can snag one up and get cracking on this thing.

 

[Spiced MSP]

no difference other than the main bearing support plate between the block and oil pan

 

[dandan2]

I have a block, crank, and everything needed for a rebuild for sale right now. The pistons are only a tad lower comp. then stock and the rods are slightly longer, this helps decrease stress put on the bottom end. Lemme know
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123803182-F.S.-Forged-motor...

 

[E38]

no difference other than the main bearing support plate between the block and oil pan

What do you think the chances are that the support plate is toast? I have never seen the inside of one of these, but the same thing happened to my VW 1.8T and the entire bottom end, crank excluded, was fudged. He has scored a regular 2.0L engine from a friend in Birmingham for free, so now it's a matter of figuring out all the small differences and preparing for that.

Thanks for the info. Anyone know a part number for this main bearing support plate? It wouldn't hurt to go ahead and price one out.

 

[E38]

I have a block, crank, and everything needed for a rebuild for sale right now. The pistons are only a tad lower comp. then stock and the rods are slightly longer, this helps decrease stress put on the bottom end. Lemme know
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123803182-F.S.-Forged-motor...

I'll bring it to his attention. Now, are these pistons oversized? Is that what you mean about the machine work. I know for a fact that he doesn't want to bore the block any. The block is obviously weak and we don't want to thin it out any further, and having someone sleeve it is just not cost effective at this point. We'd really like some drop in forged rods and pistons, but haven't fully decided on the combination yet. He had the car for less than 24hrs, so we really never got a good feel for the engine, and that means we have to do a lot of research on deciding what turbo setup will be best.

This is his first turbocharged car, and I don't want to slap a slow spooling big power turbo on it. I'm really leaning towards the 28R with stock compression. I figure the two liter should be able to spool it quickly, and the medium compression shouldn't take too much boost. I'd like to concentrate on quality of turbocharged air more than pressure numbers.

 

[E38]

Just as an update. The turdhole that sold the car to him isn't answering Manuel's calls. The initial payment was $3K with another scheduled $1700 in payments. Can't just not pay the guy because he still holds the title. Can't start fixing the car, because if he doesn't come off the price, we can't afford to, and the last thing we want to do is fix the car and still owe him money. As soon as we get word from this major A-Hole, we will start working on it. I'll take and post pictures the whole way through, not that this forum is short on engine removal photos...

 

[justanothermp5]

The block actually isnt that weak, there are people making 400whp on the block with oversize pistons. The internals are the weakpoint, once you put forged rods and pistons, it'll hold pretty much anything as long as you have a good tune. For rods, the K1 rods would be fine, since your only going to be shooting for 300whp, for pistons, the Wiseco pistons are what I run, and I havent had any problems with them so far. The GT28rs is a pretty common turbo to use on these cars because of the fast spool and the high flow. 440cc injectors, Walbro pump, and a Split Second Air Fuel Controller and you'll be ready to go in the fuel/tuning department.

Sounds like you know what your doing, hope you have good luck with the car

 

[dandan2]

Yes, they are .020 over stock. As stated, the blocks alreant weak the rods are. When the rod snaps at that kin of rpm it shoots through just about any block. I also had my motor blow on me 3 days after purchase, luckily I also purchased an aftermarket warranty that covered it with only 300 outa pocket. If he plans on making power out of it forge it now. This combo is perfect for whatever most people will throw at it. My plan was 20+ psi on a gt3071r turbo with mods listed on a sprint 500 standalone. Pauter rods are overkill for this platform.

 

[E38]

The block actually isnt that weak, there are people making 400whp on the block with oversize pistons. The internals are the weakpoint, once you put forged rods and pistons, it'll hold pretty much anything as long as you have a good tune. For rods, the K1 rods would be fine, since your only going to be shooting for 300whp, for pistons, the Wiseco pistons are what I run, and I havent had any problems with them so far. The GT28rs is a pretty common turbo to use on these cars because of the fast spool and the high flow. 440cc injectors, Walbro pump, and a Split Second Air Fuel Controller and you'll be ready to go in the fuel/tuning department.

Sounds like you know what your doing, hope you have good luck with the car

Thanks for the info. I'm adapting to this engine is all. I've worked 4G63s, and the VAG 1.8T. After working on a turbocharged VW, you can't help but know something about turbocharged cars. This Mazda is far more simple. We got the engine out in about 3hrs, and that's with 30 minute hold up. The motor looks tiny for a 2.0L. I'll be posting some pictures as soon as they load to photobucket.

He has sourced an FS-DE, but as you will see from the pictures, that bearing plate is destroyed, and that's the oil return line. So I really need help finding a part number for this plate. I'm assuming that the plate on the non turbo will either be different, or not there at all. So, we need to find a replacement, order the rods and pistons, and go pick up the motor.

He also has an A'PEXI avc boost controller, or something like that. I'm suggesting that we eliminate it, and go back to running directly to the stock wastegate until the new rods and pistons are broken in. I think that unit is total overkill on a system that is pretty straight forward. A/F guage, Boost guage, EGT guage, adjustable fuel reg, and MBC seem to be all that is really necessary. A little dyno time and some minor adjustments would do the trick on a daily driver. Why the previous owner installed that controller is beyond me. total overkill.

 

[E38]

Hood out of the way.

Getting crap out of the way

Yanking the engine

Manuel

THE DAMAGE!!!

Empty bay

Pulled engine

What's left of that bearing plate

 

[E38]

We're on a tight budget, so any links to forged rods and piston, or combos, would be appreciated. They need to definitely be able to hold 350whp, with the possibility of 400. We're still undecided on what we want to lay down, but we do know that it will gradually increase as supporting factors are addressed (clutch/flywheel, tires, etc.) Anything with the word indestructible on it would be nice, but we all know that's never the case.

This is the part that I hate about new cars. It's having to find all the good online stores that takes forever, so anything would be great, so I can add them all to my favorites list for quick access. Those rods/pistons and bearing plate are the immediate needs for right now.

 

[ogsp5]

If you want to drive to Orlando there is a fully built long block (used) with about 3k miles. Look in the FS section. Pm fatti03msp. He is willy to ship. Pictures are in his post.
Vendors listed below.
Corksport
Protege garage
Speed Circuit.
Horsepower Freaks

 

[E38]

If you want to drive to Orlando there is a fully built long block (used) with about 3k miles. Look in the FS section. Pm fatti03msp. He is willy to ship. Pictures are in his post.
Vendors listed below.
Corksport
Protege garage
Speed Circuit.
Horsepower Freaks

Thanks for the online store references. The engine that he found is much closer. It's in Birmingham, and he's getting it for free, so it's hard to pass that up. With both engines already being pulled, it really is a matter of shoving some forged rods and pistons into the new engine, and adding the bearing plate.

 

[dmention7]

Surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but when you start getting past 300hp, the transmission becomes the weak point pretty fast. You'll definitely want to address that if 350-400whp is in your plans. Good luck!

 

[HKPRO5]

Here is a link to our forged parts.

http://www.speedcircuit.net/index.php/cPath/21_38?osCsid=17d4af7a1ad418d0c691305864a5b202

Let me know if you are interested in anything.

 

[ogsp5]

+1 on the tranny. Our transmissions are another weak spot. But one thing at a time. Keep the boost low and then do the tran upgrade. A bearing support plate from a 2 liter NA engine can be used. You can either tap the oil pan or the support plate with 10 an fitting. I would recommend some type of engine management if you are planning that amount of power

 

[E38]

Surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but when you start getting past 300hp, the transmission becomes the weak point pretty fast. You'll definitely want to address that if 350-400whp is in your plans. Good luck!

Excellent information. What's the usual fix for this on this car. That's going to be a huge problem, I predict.

 

[dmention7]

Well, if you have the dough: http://www.par-engineering.com/sections/products/products.aspx?typeId=gearsets&manId=mazda

Otherwise, at a minimum you'll probably want to have the LSD welded (not welded closed, but welding the ring gear to the LSD) or upgrade to an aftermarket one. M-Factory makes an affordable one if you're not ready to go baller status on a Quaife.

Beyond that, there is anecdotal (and controversial) evidence that the gearset out of a 323GTX is stronger than the gears in the stock transmission. But really, the accepted failure mode is the transmission case flexing under high torque, causing the contact surface of the gears to be reduced until they shred. There are no direct bolt-up transmission swaps available that I'm aware of... though I think someone was looking into whether it was possible to adapt an H-series transmission. I could be off on that though.

 

[protege3690]

Surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but when you start getting past 300hp, the transmission becomes the weak point pretty fast. You'll definitely want to address that if 350-400whp is in your plans. Good luck!

Agreed..... once past the 300hp mark the lsd will be your next problem followed by grenaded gears. So look into finding an mfactory lsd and cryo treating your gears and trans casing