Forged Internals

[MPNick]

Beau, you seem as if you have greatly researched the rods in question here..Would you mind elaborating on all of this in the Forged Rod Comparo thread? I would really like to get that thread to be the last word in forged rod research for the protege...thanks!


Also, I am inviting ANY vendor to post in that thread with the technical specs and durability of the rods that they offer.

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63664

I do not what this to be taken out of text here. All of the rods that people have talked about on this forum are much better then the stock units they replace. For one the stock bolts suck. When people push the rpm to high the stock bolts will not hold and they will fail sooner then later. Pauter rods do offer a very good rod that cannot be had very easy. Maening they are much better then most companies at custom making rods. They have their own type of beam, the X beam. They proved this this beam in racing off road with their own engine that they build. It worked great for them. I have used them on 4 engines to date. One Viper V-10, one 240Z , one 240Z stroker and when we built Nick K Perfworks Protege last year.

Pro and cons, within the engine building world I feel that most builder would not pick Pauter as their first choice. Some of the reason are, cost, service and quality. On the Viper we had to resize the rods before we installed them. On the 240Z the balance was off a small amount more then other rods I have used. Also they take forever to get anything done. Every time I called for a shippment date I was told a few more weeks. The cost is very high for what you get. Now when no other company will make rods for the engine you are building then you have to deal with it. Again I am not saying that they are not good rods. They are just not the end all when it comes to rods as some people have posted here on this forum. It amy sound good on a long winded post, but facts are facts.

I have seen many engines over the years. I cannot say I have seen any race team run the Pauter rods. The only high power turbo car that I have ever seen talked about with Pauter rods was a 450hp Protege. Later it was found out that this car was not to be.

As to what rod is the best is a very open question. How much power are you looking to make? What rpms will you be running? If you are looking for 300hp then you should not get a stronger rod if it add alot of more weight or even cost. There are other things that also help with picking the right rod. A little longer rod will also help with making a little more power.

Thanks again

Later........Nick

 

[Mental Addiction]

I agree with MPI Nick.

 

[Little Beavis]

If you are looking for 300hp then you should not get a stronger rod if it add alot of more weight or even cost.

Sorry, heavy edit, but I wasn't sure of the post. Are you saying you don't need anything better than the Pauter for 300 hp? Just making sure I read it right.

 

[duMb KeoLa]

Sorry, heavy edit, but I wasn't sure of the post. Are you saying you don't need anything better than the Pauter for 300 hp? Just making sure I read it right.

great questions...to me it also sounds as if he could be talking about pauter...or maybe even stock rods...

im planning to make my car run in the 13's or possibly 12's. this thread is awesome but we really havent had a lot of true "facts" about what we could/should use. if one were to build up an engine for these kinds of 1/4 mile times...what would he have to do? rods, pistons...i understand those...what about everthing else...ie piston rings, head, port/polish, and everything else. i know very little about building engines and it would be great if someone could push us in the right direction as to WHAT we need to do to it...

thanks for all the info

 

[Mental Addiction]

great questions...to me it also sounds as if he could be talking about pauter...or maybe even stock rods...

im planning to make my car run in the 13's or possibly 12's. this thread is awesome but we really havent had a lot of true "facts" about what we could/should use. if one were to build up an engine for these kinds of 1/4 mile times...what would he have to do? rods, pistons...i understand those...what about everthing else...ie piston rings, head, port/polish, and everything else. i know very little about building engines and it would be great if someone could push us in the right direction as to WHAT we need to do to it...

thanks for all the info

This is the direction we are headed with the motor I'm building.Here is what has been or is getitng done:
Oliver Billet Rods.. Expect the best and you won't have to second guess your bottomend.
CP Custom Pistons with Tool Steel pins,8.0-1
Cryo'd stock crank and block.
Custom turbo kit with a modified GT30R, Tial 38mm and alot of boost.
The head is being ported by Brian Tolley and we are looking to use oversized valves.
As for the intake, it looks like we will be using a custom built piece due to the power we are looking to make.

As we get along furture into our motor I will be taking more pictures and posting them.

Thanks,
Beau

 

[MPNick]

great questions...to me it also sounds as if he could be talking about pauter...or maybe even stock rods...

im planning to make my car run in the 13's or possibly 12's. this thread is awesome but we really havent had a lot of true "facts" about what we could/should use. if one were to build up an engine for these kinds of 1/4 mile times...what would he have to do? rods, pistons...i understand those...what about everthing else...ie piston rings, head, port/polish, and everything else. i know very little about building engines and it would be great if someone could push us in the right direction as to WHAT we need to do to it...

thanks for all the info

Pauter would be my last choice in rods. Stock rods need to be replace ASAP if you are running more then 12 psi and or rev it past 7,000. My choice for an everday street car would be the Manley rods first. If cost is a problem and you are staying under 300hp use the Eagle rods. Again I am not saying that any other rod is junk or am I saying that my choice is the world best rod. I am matching a set of rods to what the engine will need.

BTW the MSP build we are doing has Eagle rods in it. He has run 13.7 with a stock engine on a 13psi run. With the new engine, larger FMIC and lots more boost we are looking for a very low 13s or maybe with a good tailwind and downhill track a very high 12.

Thanks again

Later......Nick

 

[KzA]

I would like to hear comments from both Beau and you Nick about the chouice of CP Pistons..I know I saw them when I was up at Modern Performance when they were about ready to drop in the MSP motor, and now I also hear Beau mentioning that he uses them. How do these pistons compare to the JE units?

The fact that the both of you very unrelated yet very educated builders use these same pistons already speaks volumes for the CP line..

 

[MPNick]

I would like to hear comments from both Beau and you Nick about the chouice of CP Pistons..I know I saw them when I was up at Modern Performance when they were about ready to drop in the MSP motor, and now I also hear Beau mentioning that he uses them. How do these pistons compare to the JE units?

The fact that the both of you very unrelated yet very educated builders use these same pistons already speaks volumes for the CP line..

As far as my choice, there is none. The C-P piston as so far ahead of what is out there. From the fit to the finish. Less piston slap then the rest also the stronest on the market. JE has had three problem over the years. First they do not cut the ring grooves as flat as they should. The rings do not seal as well as they can. The piston slap sucks. Some sound like a Mack truck when they are cold and some never go away.

We do more then a few Harley Davison jugs[cylinders] for the dealers every year. They like to use S-S pistons in them. The S-S pistons are made by JE. They are made to run at .0025 piston to wall clearance. I alwasy tell the dealer that I would hone them for .0035 min clearance. The dealers do not like the open them up to the bigger clearance because the bike owner will b**** about the piston slap. So they send the bike out as per the JE/S-S specs. Then in about a month or two they bring the jugs back to me because they are now scuffed. I re hone the jugs to my .0035 specs and they reinstall them with new rings.

The point is that with the way the JE are made they cannot be run with out getting piston slap. All piston skirts are not flat. Some are barrel grounded some are tapperd and some are both. Also you have to look at the alloy used in making the pistons. Some need more clearnace then others. How much power are you looking to make. A 300hp max engine would not get the same piston as a 350 hp max engine. We would have small changes to the pistons made for each car and owners needs.

Thanks again

Later..........Nick

 

[Mental Addiction]

Nick summed it up.The quality control as CP is second to none.There attention to detail show's in the piston line.

 

[Bigg Tim]

Man this is a F...ing great thread!!!!!! So what's the cost on the CP's???? Sounds like we have 2 fully competant builders that like these pistons.

 

[Mental Addiction]

Man this is a F...ing great thread!!!!!! So what's the cost on the CP's???? Sounds like we have 2 fully competant builders that like these pistons.

We are running a GP on them.You can find info in the Oliver GP thread.

 

[igdrasil]

Looks like Oliver Rod and CP piston is a good combination...

 

[MPNick]

Looks like Oliver Rod and CP piston is a good combination...

Yes that is the way to go. Modern Performance Inc. and MAM have teamed up to get a better setup for the Protege forum. MAM is having rods made and Modern Is having psitons made. Together we now have winning piston and rod combo that will not cause any of the problems that some people were having before with other setups.

Both the pistons and rods are custom units. They are based on what we have found to work well in the years of building engines. They are not just a replacement part. They are both a better part not just because they are stronger but because they will make you more power.

Vendors working together to get/make/build better products will only make the Protege forum stronger.

Thanks again


Later...........NIck

 

[Bigg Tim]

MPI and MAM rock!!!!!(headbang) It's good to see 2 great vendors working with each other than 2 vendors going at it. I guess that shows who is more mature of a vendor.

 

[jaman]

Yes that is the way to go. Modern Performance Inc. and MAM have teamed up to get a better setup for the Protege forum. MAM is having rods made and Modern Is having psitons made. Together we now have winning piston and rod combo that will not cause any of the problems that some people were having before with other setups.

Thanks again


Later...........NIck

How does the weight of the piston and rod compare to the stock combo?

 

[Reffoxel]

Ok, I have a question not about Oliver rods specifically but about Billet Aluminum rods in general. What I had heard was that Billet Aluminum is that it's strong and lightweight but not durable. That Aluminum rods were only good for about a 100 passes at the track (this is from some of the local engine builders). I'm looking at building a 12-14 psi turbo'd engine daily driver, so need to be concerned about overall durability.

 

[RyanJayG]

well, you are correct... typical aluminum rods are, thrown away after a set number of passes. these rods are designed for max weight saving for the rotating mass.

HOWEVER, the oliver rods are billet steel, not aluminum and dont have this problem

 

[Reffoxel]

ahhh, explains all. I must have automatically assumed aluminum when I saw the word billet. Most of the time when I hear billet it's usually followed by aluminum.

Ok so here's ,I guess, a more appropriate question. What is the performance differences between forged and billet rods?

well, you are correct... typical aluminum rods are, thrown away after a set number of passes. these rods are designed for max weight saving for the rotating mass.

HOWEVER, the oliver rods are billet steel, not aluminum and dont have this problem

 

[RyanJayG]

read this:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/

 

[muohio]

I would just like to thank MAM and Nick for their great amount of knowledge on the topic. I feel that I can know make an educated decision on what to do.

Thanks.