engine management

tyusha

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Mazda Protege5
To everyone out there knowledgeable/ interested in engine management:

I am just wondering if people know a good place to read up on the engine management, how it works, and what does the tuning of the engine management exactly do. I understand the basics, but when i read your discussions about tuning the management, all the abreviations really throw me off, i just get confused. Also how important/worth it is tuning the engine management on normally aspirated engines.

Thank you very much for the advicece, and please excuse my ignorance. I hope this will however help people like me to become more familiar with the words you use and will give us more understanding in the subject. Maybe some day we will be able to understand all you tuning Gods out there. Thanks very much again. Vik.
 
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Are you clear on the the basic things such as open/closed loop in general? Timing aspects, fuel math, incorporated sensors and others are all information needed for engine controller things...

I don't know of any good websites off hand that can lay this down in an easy to understand manner...Most get vehicle specific quickly, on drift away from general info...with that said there is very little engine management discussions and topics regarding info strictly for protege's and FS engines, other than this board...

So basically you are stuck with us for the most part to find the info you need...

I can give you or point you in a direction to get whatever questions you have answered...I have been very interested in this aspect of performance for a while, and can point you to who knows their s*** about it if you need me to...

Also thank you for making this thread...it would prove to be a great place for laying down all the confusing jargon that goes on in engine controller discussions...

So start it off...Give us an idea of what you understand thus far, and ask what questions you want answered first, and we can go from there...
 
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Thanks for a quick responce. I've been intersted in this for a while as well. There is a great thread/discussion going on right now, led by Turbge, about him tuning the gready e-manage unit. While being a very interesting topic (even for me with my minimal knowlege in that area) it is very confusing. I don't exactly undestand how the unit works, what exactly he is trying to do, and have very hard time understanding/interpreting the fuel maps. I understand that that thread is more relevant for MSP owners, but still. I felt really bad posting this kinds of questions there, since that thread is very organized, and people actually understand what they are talking about. My resolution for now is to understand how ECU works, what sensors are responsible for what. I remember reading something about open/closed loops of the ECU but didn't really understant that ether.

Anyway, any relevant info as well as any sugestions, interesting facts etc would be GREATLY appreciated by me and other fellow protege owners. Thank you guys, Vik.
 
No problem man...that is exactly what this place is for...asking questions, sharing knowledge, and getting answers...

You are correct...Braden (Turboge) knows his s*** big time, he has successfully tuned Haltech E6X standalone controller...which is a full replacement for the factory ECU...He is now working with a Greddy E-manage piggyback system, that can also control fuel and timing to a point...But it does not replace the factory piece, it more or less intercepts a number of sensor readings, and does some tricks to allow the user to program different aspects of the engine's behaviour...(just a note, and this may be confusing at this point...To my knowledge, Braden ran the Haltech "in parallel" with the facotry ECU...In this case the haltech standalone was completely controlling the fuel math and timing aspects, while allowing the factory ECU to run the other crap, such as the tach, A/C, or whatever else...Generally this setup makes the wiring more simple, and by passes some headaches..However this is a different setup than the E-manage and stock ECU...this thread will probably and hopefully get into that later)

So I will start with what closed loop and open loop is in general...I will try to keep it simple at first, to keep the length down...

Our stock ECU relies on two different "modes" to control the engine...the stock ECU is not tuned for performance, but more for emissions and engine safety...One mode is referred to as closed loop, and one as Open loop...They both pertain to a similar area of the engine controll, but do it in completely different ways...

Closed Loop: Closed loop refers to a negative feedback system that controls the fuel math of the engine...Basically the O2 sensor will "sense" any unburned oxygen in the exhuast gas content, and report back a reading to the ECU...the ECU utilizes this signal to determine the nature of the fuel/air mixture that has already been burned up (this is why it is "negative feedback, a similar way to how a thermostat works...Heat goes up, thermostat recognizes it and shuts off the heat...Heat goes down, thermostat recognizes it, and the heater/furnace kicks back on...)...Through this system the ECU can tell if the mixture is too lean or too rich...and will attempt as much as possible to make it "perfect"...By perfect I mean stoichiometric...This refers to a fuel air mixture of 14.7:1 (14.7 "moles" of O2, to one "mole" of gasonline)...That theoretically is the amount of reactants to make a complete burn...In which there is no CO (carbon monoxide) or unburned hydrocarbon molecules, which is terrible for the environment...the good part is that this is also a good mixture for the engine at certain points...So that is what closed loop tries to do, it takes input from the primary O2 sensor and the ECU uses it to keep the Air/Fuel mixture as close to stoichiometric as possible...When it is stiochiometric, no unburned reactants will be left over in the exhuast...so the O2 sensor notices nothing, and the ECU keeps the same fuel math until the sensor reads problems...and then fuel will be cut to lean it out a little more...

Obviously there is more involved with this...other sensors are used to incorporate more fuel to a less accurate degree (I believe input from the throttle position sensor is used initially...so that more fuel is safely added as the throttle is opened...the O2 sensor aspect runs in the background to keep it more accurate)

Also some things you will notice is what is known as a Wide Band O2 Sensor (or WBO2 sensor, if you saw it and didn't know what it was...)...which cures a fundamental problem with closed loop somewhat...the stock O2 sensor is only designed to notice amounts of exhuast content that are exhuasted from a near stoichiometric mixture...For reasons beyond this initial post, a 14.7:1 A/F ratio is far too lean for an engine once load and revs increase substantially...there is a threshold for the stock O2 sensor, in which once the maximum reading of the O2 sensor is reached...the ECU switches to open loop (as well as with sensors reading amounts of load on the engine...they play a part in the mode switch as well)...the stock O2 sensor only reads a little richer than 14.7:1, so stock closed loop is only used for light load low speed vehicle operation...once load increases, the mixture needs to be richer, and the closed loop system is switched to open loop...which generally no longer uses the O2 sensor...Now a WBO2 sensor has a much more "sensitive" measuring device to notice much more unburned hydrocarbon content...and they are also very expensive...But with a sensor such as this, as well as the proper ECU upgrades to translate the new readings...You can run a mode known as "High Load Closed Loop"...which operates exactly the same way as before, but over a much broader scale...In some cases a user can set target air fuel ratios over the entire rev range and load scale, and use only high load closed loop...That is the easiest way to tune fuel mapping to some, but it is not necessarily the most accurate or "best"...

So that should give you a general idea of how closed loop works...So next comes Open loop...
 
What an awesome explanation, thanks I guess me being a science major also helps with understanding the whole stoichiometry deal. But that was great. Thanks

Hopefully me being a science major and my passion for cars :D will help with the understanding of the whole thing...:)
 
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Alright men, I am going to need some help with this one...I was never very clear on exactly what sensors are used for open loop, as well as a number of other aspects of it...But I will still try to lay down what I know about it, anyway...forgive any ignornance...

Open Loop: this is mode functions differently than closed loop mostly by not being a negative feedback mechanism...Fuel math requirements are translated before that specific combustion cycle takes place...

I am unclear on all the sensors used, but the MAF to my knowledge places one of the biggest roles...the Mass Airflow Sensor detects the oxygen charge before it reaches the combustion chambers of the engine...Through this, and again as well as other sensors, the ECU traces through pre-programmed fuel maps that determine the amount of fuel for each rev range and load point...Basically the ECU is no longer running on the fly, but incorporating fuel math by use of premade files...and these files are dead rich...You will notice on stock ECU dyno pulls with datalogged A/F ratios, almost exactly where the switch took place...It will be running decently lean in closed loop, and then go to decently rich in only a few hundred rpm...This is mostly for safety, despite being poor for the environment...Detonation problems are generally less severe and less likely with a richer mixture...They can still occur in bad conditions or extreme load, but "in general" detonation will be better kept at bay...

That about does it for me...and that is pathetic, I will have to look up a bit more info that I can't remember off the top of my head...

these two posts break down the basics between the two modes...and open loop is lacking for the most part...So anyone who knows more about it, feel free to post away and ridicule my ignorance eternally...I will try to edit any problems or holes I left in these initial posts...

But Tyusha, you are probably realizing that this will be a long ongoing process to answer everything...once the tech guru's chime in, it will get much more informative and easier to understand...

And mods if you would look into "sticky"ing this if it progresses well, that would be great...
 
tyusha said:
What an awesome explanation, thanks I guess me being a science major also helps with understanding the whole stoichiometry deal. But that was great. Thanks

Hopefully me being a science major and my passion for cars :D will help with the understanding of the whole thing...:)

Oh nice...had I known you were a science major, I could of kept that from being redundant...but it will still help someone that doesn't understand stoichiometry issues...

No problem man...sorry about it going on so long, but to make it clear it takes a lot of typing...:D
 
tyusha said:
Also how important/worth it is tuning the engine management on non aspirated engines.


I overlooked this earlier...I am assuming you mean an NA engine, which refers to a "normally aspirated" or more correctly a "naturally aspirated" engine...in which there is no oxygen being forced (like with turbo's or superchargers) or being created (nitrous) within the engine...it only relies on a natural vaccum to induct oxygen...

it is commonly unnoticed that an NA engine needs proper tuning as FI engines for maximum output and safety...In most cases with extreme boost...it is a necessity, but with a high compression NA engine it is needed just as much...

So to anwer your question, it depends mostly on how aggressively you plan on modding the engine for NA...If you hang basic bolt-ons off of it, the thing won't explode without a $1500 standalone...but it definately won't make the absolute maximum power...but once you get into static compression ratio increases, and extreme internal modifications to incorporate more oxygen into the combustion process, it gets very important very quickly...
 
ok, so a nub like me who is not a science major...

since we covered that 14.7:1 is the level the ecu trys to keep it at and the point of getting an ecu upgrade would be to optomize that as well as other things. What are the optimum levels...speaking about NA right now since boost is distant future. Would you want to lean it out high end and make it a little more rich low, is it trial and error when someone sets the ratio they want at different rpm levels or is there math to use based on your engine.

Timing I get how the basics work, but like with some that are going to jspec or custom cams and cam gears timing needs to be adjusted for that, i would assume, but dont really know how the two affect each other to do the tuning.

Basically I am at the end stages bolt ons, intake and exhaust done, header ordered, cams and gears next and then the ecu. This also means I would want to use the same ecu for when I go to boost, does this mean some ecu replacements wont work for that and would need to be changed out for boost apps.

Thats all for now, ill remember more later.

Thx boyz, you are all the best.
 
My upgrades are very close to what p5sundevil has, so all hiis questions are relevant to me as well. Thanks guys keep posting that usefull and interesting info up. Maybe with our mutual efforts to make this thread better and educate people like myself we'll make our cars perform better, not to say they don't perform well :D Thanks guys, Vik.
 
Great info, Perfworks, thanks for that post.
Exactly what we needed, just great. Keep 'em comming people. So far so good.
 
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yeah we got perfy now, things will get very in depth shortly I bet...Braden, Terry, or anyone else that knows engine tuning more than I know my own backyard please join in...I know there are tons of you poking around...
 
Nick I just read over most of that article...That is the most amazing link I think I have every seen pertaining to exactly what the thread needs...Keep up the good work and sharing...Reading that takes care of a ton of typing...:D
 
p5sundevil said:
ok, so a nub like me who is not a science major...

since we covered that 14.7:1 is the level the ecu trys to keep it at and the point of getting an ecu upgrade would be to optomize that as well as other things. What are the optimum levels...speaking about NA right now since boost is distant future. Would you want to lean it out high end and make it a little more rich low, is it trial and error when someone sets the ratio they want at different rpm levels or is there math to use based on your engine.

Timing I get how the basics work, but like with some that are going to jspec or custom cams and cam gears timing needs to be adjusted for that, i would assume, but dont really know how the two affect each other to do the tuning.

Basically I am at the end stages bolt ons, intake and exhaust done, header ordered, cams and gears next and then the ecu. This also means I would want to use the same ecu for when I go to boost, does this mean some ecu replacements wont work for that and would need to be changed out for boost apps.

Thats all for now, ill remember more later.

Thx boyz, you are all the best.

the stoichiometry issue gets tricky with engine's...Basically, No, you don't want pretty much any automotive engine to run at 14.7:1 during ALL conditions...That is very lean for a "loaded" engine...boosted or not...

Also that EMS link posted by Nick should help with explaining engine controllers...Most aftermarket standalones are so universal that you will easily control a built NA engine, and use the same one on a crazy boosted FI engine...The tuning will need to be altered, but the same controller will be able to handle it...
 
Alright now I have a question...According to your link Nick, Open Loop is referred to as a condition where only the maps are used...also that it is only used a WOT, and offers no compensation from other sensors (such as air temp, coolant/ engine temp) other than those required for triggering (engine postion sensors and load sensors)...which overall makes it not very adaptive to adverse conditions...

So here is the question...does a Protege actually use open loop only at WOT, like the fabled myth from years ago? I originally thought this was the case: Open loop at WOT, normal running at loaded partial throttle apps, and closed loop for idle and light load cruising...But I was defeated on that front, and was told that there was two modes only ...Open and Closed...used on a protege's ECU...

so is that link just referring to normal running and Open loop running as two seperate things, although they generally can be regarded as the same...I have heard some EMS manufacturers claim that mapped Open loop will use other sensors to detect abnormal conditions; does not use the O2 lamda sensor; and is not only at WOT, which that link claims otherwise...and those reps for the EMS's was one of the reasons I too realized that closed loop was not always used at every partial throttle application...and Open loop not only at WOT...

This may simply be a mix up of definitions, but can you clarify it at all?
 
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