E85 Ethanol Gas

[murph1379]

So here in MN we have some stations that carry E85 gas, which is 85% Ethanol. A friend of mine who might as well be a Subaru engineer, was telling me about how well this stuff performs, especially with turbo applications. He had all kinds of charts and documents and such that I won't remember, but it was pretty compelling. Apparently we don't want to run more than a 25%ish ethanol mix, so putting like 1/3 of a tank in mixed with premium works well. (as it's only 85% ethanol you can use a bit more than 25% of a tank) Another friend said he's using it, and after driving his car, I was convinced.

So today I stopped by a station close to my office and got about 25% E85 in there. I'm totally floored. This is by far the best my car has ever run. It feels smoother and almost as strong with the A/C on as it did without AC on premium only. Without A/C it feels awesome. I can only imagine that this is what mazda engineers were running when they tuned this thing, because for the first time there's no hesitation or surging in the powerband, smooth all the way up! My car is bone stock, with only a K&N drop in filter.

Has anyone else tried this? Do other states have E85? I guess the energy bill that's about to pass will increase the ethanol mandate nationwide to 20%, so maybe soon we won't have to mix at all, but I have to say, I'm impressed.

 

[pb4ugoout]

i can 85% here but i know that you can only run that in certain cars. not all vehicles are designed to run on that. I was actually talking about this with my dad the other day trying to find out if he could put it in my moms pt cruiser because it's cheaper. it's 1.85 vs. 2.15 so we were wondering. could find anything the in cars documentation that said it could use gasohol. I have read anything about the msp tho. I'm not going to fight with you or say you are wrong or anything but i'm didn't know gas could do that much. The hesitation the car suffers from isn't because of what type of gas we are using so i find it hard to believe that using ether in your tank is changing that. I can understand that it could smooth out the rpm band but eliminating the hesitation seem pretty far fetched...

anyone who actually knows about motors wanna chime in on this? i'm interested now

 

[davens]

Ethanol blends have mixed results. It looks like you're seeing the higher octane as a benefit.
The biggest drawback is non E85 fuel systems allow ethanol to permeate through plastic and rubber linings into the atmosphere.
5% ethanol is known safe and 10% has a lot of support as well...but 25%? That's getting a little high.


Here's a list of E85 compatible models:
http://www.auroracoop.com/e85.htm

 

[SilentSno]

I also read this:

What happens if I accidentally fuel my gasoline-only powered vehicle with E85?

Response:

Although your vehicle was not manufactured to run on E85, no problems should occur if you mistakenly fuel once with the alternative fuel. The largest difference between an E85 powered vehicle and a gasoline powered vehicle is that their computer modules are meant to read different amounts of oxygen within the fuel. E85 contains a higher amount of oxygen than gasoline and E85 compatible vehicles are made to read that higher amount. When a higher amount of oxygen is read by a gasoline powered vehicle, your "check engine light" may appear. However, the vehicle will run just as it will with gasoline.


From


http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/misfueling.php


So if you could compensate for the added oxygen you could run straight E85 according to this. Maybe someone with a Standalone.

 

[low_psi]

I don't suggest it. E85 has much different properties than 91oct gasoline. I don't want to even go into the details, but our fuel system was not designed for ethanol, nor was the car tuned for ethanol... its just a bad idea despite the apparent power increase.

 

[murph1379]

I should grab the info my friend was referencing, I'll do that when I get to work, so that people who might be able to poke holes in it can have a look. I'm only 50 miles into my first blended tank, so the ecu may yet relearn this stuff and shoot me down, but it's promising so far! =]

 

[Pyr0TeK]

Hell you all have me interested now. I could care less about the price of gas... it is what it is... zoom zoom is what matters... let's keep this thread going to see if we can get to the bottom of this. Anyone thought to contact Mazda? I might give them a buzz today to to ask as a general consumer. Name is John Doe. (rockon)

 

[ONRAILS]

Interesting... subscribing.

 

[murph1379]

Anyone thought to contact Mazda?

LOL if you could get a hold of someone at Mazda who knows what a turbocharger does, I'll be impressed. If they actually know the effects of various blends of ethanol on our motors I'll be more impressed. If they give you an honest answer without looking up your VIN to void your warranty I'll be amazed.

I'll be at work in a few hours and will get the info I have...

 

[igdrasil]

I don't suggest it. E85 has much different properties than 91oct gasoline. I don't want to even go into the details, but our fuel system was not designed for ethanol, nor was the car tuned for ethanol... its just a bad idea despite the apparent power increase.

Why is this such a bad idea? There are some people using and producing their own ethanol for their cars. The only drawbacks are... the cost of producing it @ home and that is highly corrosive if used alone. So unless you flush the system or at least fill the tank with pure gasoline after using ethanol, you will not have problems.

You could use 50/50 and get 99 octane on the tank, have fun @ the tracks or whatever you want to go, use it...then fill the tank with normal gasoline.

 

[Mallard]

LOL if you could get a hold of someone at Mazda who knows what a turbocharger does, I'll be impressed. If they actually know the effects of various blends of ethanol on our motors I'll be more impressed. If they give you an honest answer without looking up your VIN to void your warranty I'll be amazed.

I'll be at work in a few hours and will get the info I have...

wow

I think some people at Mazda, or any auto company for that matter, would be able to answer your questions. Do you really think that the internet research you do in a day will make you smarter then people that work on it every day? I doubt you'd be able to contact anyone at Mazda that could answer this for you though.

Basically, E85 has a high octane rating and a lower energy content then gas. The same car running on E85 or gas will make more power with gas because of this. However, if an engine is specifically built for E85 you can make more power. (Higher CR) With a turbo car that means you could run more boost safely, and you would have to run higher then stock boost to make more power on E85.

 

[orphman]

subscribing

 

[igdrasil]

wow
With a turbo car that means you could run more boost safely, and you would have to run higher then stock boost to make more power on E85.

Nah, Ethanol has more octane rating than gas, so it will make more power @ same amount of boost with proper ignition and fuel management.

Thats why you see alcohol race cars @ 30psi of boost running 40deg advanced and even non intercooled!!!(rockon)

 

[murph1379]

Do you really think that the internet research you do in a day will make you smarter then people that work on it every day? I doubt you'd be able to contact anyone at Mazda that could answer this for you though.

Yes, that was my point. I'm quite sure there are engineers in Japan who would laugh at our conversation, (one way or another) but I'm quite sure none of us would ever get to chat with them.

 

[murph1379]

Here is the info my friend linked, check the last post in the thread:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=795381&highlight=e85

Interesting info of unknown validity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_as_a_fuel

Chart for determining how much E85 to use:

http://www.geocities.com/kidambient/chart.jpg

Again, I'm not a chemical or automotive engineer, and I'm not even that knowledgable a car guy, but I have friends who are, and if they're convinced, I'm willing to give it a try. So far it's grins all around.

 

[PhreakV]

Anyone thought to contact Mazda?

I did try to contact Mazda through a service manager friend here in KC for another guy's question (read here: Thread ). he tends to know what he's talking about and he told me that its a bad idea. I'm sure that you can do it, I'm just not so sure its a great idea long term...

 

[murph1379]

I did try to contact Mazda through a service manager friend here in KC for another guy's question (read here: Thread ). he tends to know what he's talking about and he told me that its a bad idea. I'm sure that you can do it, I'm just not so sure its a great idea long term...

Hmm, well since ALL gas here in MN is E10, and will be E20 soon, I think he probably doesn't know what he's talking about in this case. If he'd care to expand on WHY, I'd love to hear it, but saying that E10 will destroy our engines is obviously false, since every MN MSP has been running it since day 1.

 

[Mallard]

Nah, Ethanol has more octane rating than gas, so it will make more power @ same amount of boost with proper ignition and fuel management.

Thats why you see alcohol race cars @ 30psi of boost running 40deg advanced and even non intercooled!!!(rockon)

Actually no. The lower heating values of the fules correspond to the energy content of the fuel. Gasoline is a lot higher. This is also why vehicles that run on E85 can't go as far on a full tank and have larger volume tanks to compensate for that.

Lower Heating Values (BTU/Gal)
Gasoline - 115,400
Ethanol 100% - 75,591
E85 - 83,553
E70 - 89,524
E65 - 91,515

Because of it's 105 octane rating you can run more advanced timing too. Alcohol also has a cooling effect when burned so the cylinders will run cooler and if the intake air is hot enough to evaporate some of that alcohol before spark ignition (which it will be), the air will be cooled too, giving it an intercooling effect. (Just like alchy/water injection)

EDIT: I'll add that it is possible to gain HP with E85. Ford's flex fuel vehicles have shown a slight HP increase on E85. Not so much the nature of the fuel as it is the ECU's ability to detect the higher octane fuel and adjust parameter's accordingly. (timing) But they still get worse fuel economy.

 

[igdrasil]

Actually no. The lower heating values of the fules correspond to the energy content of the fuel. Gasoline is a lot higher.

That explains myself, You can pull more power out of Ethanol, it just needs more fuel for that, so the A/F ratio needs to be adjusted along with ignition to meet the stoichiometric ratio of ethanol which if i remember correctly 9:1 while for gasoline should be around 15:1.

Thats why more ethanol is required.

 

[orphman]

where can ya get Eth. to mix your own... PA doesnt have anywhere i know of to get .1eth gas or.2 or anyof it