Dyno run input... 3rd & 4th WOT pulls. Help Please!

[dougefresh_]

So I flashed the stage 2 TIHSF 93oct map about a week ago, and my fuel trims maxed at +6. I calibrated the MAF (thanks for all the help smoker!), and my LTFT's are now within +3, and I'm fine with that.
I'm running the stock fuel pump, and mods in my sig. I only had KR of 0.35 at WOT a few times, which I thought was okay. My fuel pressure hasn't dipped below 1200psi, but it's cutting it close (fuel pump is next to be safe). My afr's ran a little lean near redline (I shift at 6K, but I think there a bit low? Dangerously low??)
I attached an edited, easy to read excel file of the 3 pulls below the graphs. I would GREATLY appreciate some input as to where I need to go next, or what I need to keep a close eye on. I'm learning as quick as I can, but it's only been a couple of weeks, and it's a lot to take in.
Here are the graphs of the hp/tq, as well as the PSI/RPM/AFR graph.

I really appreciate the help! I've been reading the ATR manual a lot. There's a lot I don't understand beyond calibrating the MAF, lol

 

[KrGsMrNKusinagi]

So you think you should be making more power? Indeed you should. Try a different Dyno?
Also do a compression test maybe

 

[dougefresh_]

So you think you should be making more power? Indeed you should. Try a different Dyno?
Also do a compression test maybe

I'm okay with the power... I wouldn't mind tweaking some more out of her. However, I'd rather trade off a couple hp's and I also want to run a little rich. Not sure if my fuel pump can cope though. I'm new to tuning... getting a grip on the MAF calibration was a challenge, lol. I don't really care about the hp/tq numbers at all... I just want a solid and safe tune. I'd love feedback on the dyno pulls, and where to go from here. My nose will be in the ATR manual once again...

btw, the car is a LOT faster than before I added the TP and the stage 2. Huge difference in power. The numbers are misleading imo

 

[Blendercloud]

Hey Doug,

I'm not our resident ECU/tuning expert, but just looking at your log it looks like at the top end the reason your AFR's got richer is to cool off the combustion chamber a bit. If you look at the boosted air temperatures at that same time you see they start to spike. According to the dyno it looks like you're still making good power at that rev level so I wouldn't necessarily shift right at 6k. You might hold off until 6300 instead.

 

[8.5MS3]

runs look good but power is low. not really sure why tho. I put down the exact same power stock (literally 228.6), but obviously dont have the same drivetrain losses.

and your wastegate is being maxed out. might want to try increasing timing a bit

You also seem to be heatsoaked with IAT at 120+ degrees.

As said earlier the CDFP should be replaced

Overall the tune looks safe, but a lot more power can safely be made IMO

 

[dougefresh_]

Hey Doug,

I'm not our resident ECU/tuning expert, but just looking at your log it looks like at the top end the reason your AFR's got richer is to cool off the combustion chamber a bit. If you look at the boosted air temperatures at that same time you see they start to spike. According to the dyno it looks like you're still making good power at that rev level so I wouldn't necessarily shift right at 6k. You might hold off until 6300 instead.

Hey Chris! Okay, so I need to upgrade my tmic, correct? Anything else that affects BATs? That's probably not happening anytime soon due to $$ constraints. I want to get the upgraded fuel pump next.

runs look good but power is low. not really sure why tho. I put down the exact same power stock (literally 228.6), but obviously dont have the same drivetrain losses.

and your wastegate is being maxed out. might want to try increasing timing a bit

You also seem to be heatsoaked with IAT at 120+ degrees.

As said earlier the CDFP should be replaced

Overall the tune looks safe, but a lot more power can safely be made IMO

Could part of the low numbers be due to the dyno? A friend dynoed his MS6 right after me, and he has the following mods:Cobb SF, TIP, CP-E Catted dp, 2.5" magnaflow cbe, custom fmic, forge bvp. He also has an exhaust mani, but that was NOT on during his run. He's also running an untuned stage 2, with the stock fuel pump (he's getting one asap), and he put down: 235whp/270wtq.

In a nutshell, I only have the TP and stock dp, and the stock tmic. He has the CPE-catted dp, and a custom fmic. We're both using 1-step colder plugs. I know that dp is a big restriction for me, as well as the tmic, but if you compare his mods and numbers to mine, I think the difference is reasonable given my lack of dp (and the big whp gains) and the upgraded ic. So maybe this dyno gives numbers a little low, I dunno.

I see the wastegate getting maxed out when going from vacuum to full boost. I would've guessed maybe a boost leak, but I'm holding boost fine (again I'm a little lost here). I reading up on the timing, but I'm a bit behind the learning curve at this point. I know you can advance timing to get more power, but you will also get closer to detonation.... you want to find MBT. I'd prefer to retard timing a bit back from MBT (if/when I get there) and run rich and a bit safer. I'm still reading though...


Thanks for you help guys!

 

[Blendercloud]

Hey Chris! Okay, so I need to upgrade my tmic, correct? Anything else that affects BATs?

An upgraded TMIC would surely help. However, it definitely doesn't help that you were sitting still. Real world testing would probably show lower BAT's at that engine speed.

 

[8.5MS3]

Could part of the low numbers be due to the dyno? A friend dynoed his MS6 right after me, and he has the following mods:Cobb SF, TIP, CP-E Catted dp, 2.5" magnaflow cbe, custom fmic, forge bvp. He also has an exhaust mani, but that was NOT on during his run. He's also running an untuned stage 2, with the stock fuel pump (he's getting one asap), and he put down: 235whp/270wtq.

In a nutshell, I only have the TP and stock dp, and the stock tmic. He has the CPE-catted dp, and a custom fmic. We're both using 1-step colder plugs. I know that dp is a big restriction for me, as well as the tmic, but if you compare his mods and numbers to mine, I think the difference is reasonable given my lack of dp (and the big whp gains) and the upgraded ic. So maybe this dyno gives numbers a little low, I dunno.

I see the wastegate getting maxed out when going from vacuum to full boost. I would've guessed maybe a boost leak, but I'm holding boost fine (again I'm a little lost here). I reading up on the timing, but I'm a bit behind the learning curve at this point. I know you can advance timing to get more power, but you will also get closer to detonation.... you want to find MBT. I'd prefer to retard timing a bit back from MBT (if/when I get there) and run rich and a bit safer. I'm still reading though...


Thanks for you help guys!

I put that down on the exact same dyno. Tuned i got up to 260whp with just an intake and tip. There's a lot of power that you still havn't unlocked. Try leaning out the AFR to 11.6-11.8.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Doug,
Your logs look very good to me, with one exception. The AFR is going very rich at the upper revs due to the stock fuel table values in the map, which is ok and very safe. The IAT is high due to the static dyno runs, but no problem as you didn't get any KR to speak of. The 0.35 KR is "normal" as the ECU is targeting the knock threshold. A DP and IC upgrade along with more tuning will bring more power, so don't sweat the numbers for now.

My exception is the fully Open Loop transition(LTFT goes to 0.16). When you go WOT, the ECU is still in Closed Loop and stays there for quite some time and runs the Closed Loop AFR table which is pretty lean for WOT. This is also due to stock mapping and in your case, the motor is at pretty low revs and boost, so it really isn't a big problem for now. However, if you want to tweak the power up later, you will want to get the ECU into Open Loop ASAP after WOT, no matter what the revs.

Note that I have dropped my Closed Loop Exit Delay A from OEM= 30 down to 10 and B&C from OEM= 80 down to 35. When the ECU hits the Closed Loop Max Throttle Target or the Max Load Target and needs Open Loop, the ECU is delayed the amount in the delay tables. I can''t say positively what the values represent as I haven't timed them, but I think it is in milliseconds. No matter though, just drop the delay values a bit. Note that I did not change the Closed Loop Max tables from OEM values.

 

[dougefresh_]

I put that down on the exact same dyno. Tuned i got up to 260whp with just an intake and tip. There's a lot of power that you still havn't unlocked. Try leaning out the AFR to 11.6-11.8.

Wow. Good job! What did you have for TQ? And thanks!

Doug,
Your logs look very good to me, with one exception. The AFR is going very rich at the upper revs due to the stock fuel table values in the map, which is ok and very safe. The IAT is high due to the static dyno runs, but no problem as you didn't get any KR to speak of. The 0.35 KR is "normal" as the ECU is targeting the knock threshold. A DP and IC upgrade along with more tuning will bring more power, so don't sweat the numbers for now.

Okay, this makes sense, but I haven't messed with the stock fuel tables (or any tables except MAF). It sounds like I should leave this where it is for now, but I would like to get some more power. I'm not looking to hit MBT or close, but it sounds like I can still safely make quite a bit more power without upgrading anything. I can't upgrade my stock fuel pump for a long time (broke), but I'm watching it and it looks okay. I don't want to push it too much with the stock pump, but if it looks shaky after tuning some hp's, I'll just go back to a less agressive map, or the stock one if I have to until I get a cdfp.

My exception is the fully Open Loop transition(LTFT goes to 0.16). When you go WOT, the ECU is still in Closed Loop and stays there for quite some time and runs the Closed Loop AFR table which is pretty lean for WOT. This is also due to stock mapping and in your case, the motor is at pretty low revs and boost, so it really isn't a big problem for now. However, if you want to tweak the power up later, you will want to get the ECU into Open Loop ASAP after WOT, no matter what the revs.

I read about this delay, and how it said that shortening the time can "greatly affect drivability." I'm sure that's exaggerated and I don't want to lean out for any reason. I'd like to tweak up the power a bit now working on this map, but I don't know what ranges/number values would be appropriate changes in specific tables. What you read makes perfect sense, and I understand it.

Note that I have dropped my Closed Loop Exit Delay A from OEM= 30 down to 10 and B&C from OEM= 80 down to 35. When the ECU hits the Closed Loop Max Throttle Target or the Max Load Target and needs Open Loop, the ECU is delayed the amount in the delay tables. I can''t say positively what the values represent as I haven't timed them, but I think it is in milliseconds. No matter though, just drop the delay values a bit. Note that I did not change the Closed Loop Max tables from OEM values.

It sounds like you have your fuel tables go from CL to OL much quicker to avoid going lean.
Also, when the ECU detects either a certain load value or large increase in throttle position, it will switch to the OL tables which are much richer (for obvious reasons). Does anything else cause the switch from CL to OL?

Do I understand right?

As for where I go from here to ----> (braindead

And thanks for you help Forzda1! I'm trying here

EDIT: So I need to decrease the delay from CL to OL regardless because it's running lean when I dip in?

 

[8.5MS3]

I don't remember the exact number but it was around 315 I think. I have the sheet scanned in my computer, ill check. But that was a bad tune that turned out to be very dangerous. Very high boost (20psi) and load targets with afr's in the low 10s to stop knock. I have been retuned to 18psi and am making 20 more hp than before. Since your on the east coast, you may want to consider a protune from the shop I went to in NJ. He can set you up with a very safe tune that will make gobs of power.

 

[FORZDA 1]

It sounds like you have your fuel tables go from CL to OL much quicker to avoid going lean.

Yes, you always wan the ECU in open loop when you go WOT. If it stays in CLosed Loop you WILL run a bit lean according to the CL table until the ECU makes the switch.

Also, when the ECU detects either a certain load value or large increase in throttle position, it will switch to the OL tables which are much richer (for obvious reasons). Does anything else cause the switch from CL to OL?

Do I understand right?

Yes, it is based on Load and 5k rpm. The issue is that the ECU still runs the delays even when you hit 5k rpm. The AFRs are in a transition region(values vary!) until the ECU hits OL.

EDIT: So I need to decrease the delay from CL to OL regardless because it's running lean when I dip in?

Yes, I would start by cutting them in half the first time and see how the car reacts. Mine was MUCH better at hitting the AFR I put into the tables and doing pretty much what I thought it should be doing, etc.

You're doing fine now, just hang in there!

You can pay for a "pro" tune, if you want, but you can get it done yourself with a bit of time working with the AP. It "ain't rocket science"!

 

[dougefresh_]

Yes, you always wan the ECU in open loop when you go WOT. If it stays in CLosed Loop you WILL run a bit lean according to the CL table until the ECU makes the switch.

Yes, it is based on Load and 5k rpm. The issue is that the ECU still runs the delays even when you hit 5k rpm. The AFRs are in a transition region(values vary!) until the ECU hits OL.

Yes, I would start by cutting them in half the first time and see how the car reacts. Mine was MUCH better at hitting the AFR I put into the tables and doing pretty much what I thought it should be doing, etc.

You're doing fine now, just hang in there!

You can pay for a "pro" tune, if you want, but you can get it done yourself with a bit of time working with the AP. It "ain't rocket science"!

Cooool! Thanks a lot man, I appreciate all the help. I'm also very glad to be catching on.... finally! lol I'll read up about the tables tomorrow at work when I can. I didn't have ATR in front of me, so I couldn't play around with it while I read up.

 

[BoostedSpd6]

i remember back in what was it november.. there was a meet at DSG and all the numbers were low on every car they ran that day.. i think there dyno system is messed up but who knows.. thats way low for power numbers if you ask me.

 

[dougefresh_]

i remember back in what was it november.. there was a meet at DSG and all the numbers were low on every car they ran that day.. i think there dyno system is messed up but who knows.. thats way low for power numbers if you ask me.

Does DSG = Dent Sport Garage in Norwood, MA? That's where I went, lol. Too bad I didn't do some pulls completely stock for a baseline. The dude running the dyno said someone with a stock MS6 only put down 193whp on their dyno a few months back. That would make more sense. I dunno. If it's the same place, do you recall anyone getting on the dyno bone stock and their numbers? Regardless, the consensus seems to be that there's quite a bit more power that can be safely tapped. And Thanks for the input!

 

[BoostedSpd6]

yeah thats who im talking about, i guess that day one of the tuners said that the drums were screwed up on the dyno and the numbers were way off all day even on the evo's that were there.. who knows. i think if you went to a different tuning shop, and ran the car on a different dyno youd be more satisfied though

 

[dougefresh_]

yeah thats who im talking about, i guess that day one of the tuners said that the drums were screwed up on the dyno and the numbers were way off all day even on the evo's that were there.. who knows. i think if you went to a different tuning shop, and ran the car on a different dyno youd be more satisfied though

I'd imagine it would be fixed by now. Anyways, I'm satisfied as I really just needed those datalogs. I'm even more satisfied that thing look very safe except at dip in as Forzda mentioned. Once I'm done with the final tune, I was planning on going back to DSG for a comparison... the only way really to get an accurate idea of the increase I think. Unless their dyno gives inconsistent readings on the same car, then it is pretty useless.

 

[djuosnteisn]

Agreed, run looks clean. Listen to forzda on this, he's totally right.

Fuel is damn rich, and that prob affects some of the power. You can lean it out a bit for some more fun

 

[KrGsMrNKusinagi]

yeah thats who im talking about, i guess that day one of the tuners said that the drums were screwed up on the dyno and the numbers were way off all day even on the evo's that were there.. who knows. i think if you went to a different tuning shop, and ran the car on a different dyno youd be more satisfied though

Yea thats what I said try a different dyno.. That being said as well I dont know how accurate a dyno is vs real world.. I mean you can simulate air going through your grille but is it really the same as driving? Im no expert but I would just use a dyno as a measure but not really take it too seriously considering the controlled environment its in no real wind resistance and I dont know how exactly the rollers do resistance vs the real world resistance your car is against the road.. Again Im no dyno queen guy never was But I would love to get on one. Have not done one in a while and not int his car at all.

 

[dougefresh_]

First of all, I want to thank all you guys for all your help and patience! I fixed my MAF table B... I had forgot to apply the adjustments to I made to Table A to Table B, lol.

I also halved my CL exit delays for A, B, and C. I wanted to add launch control, but I'm not sure what to use for a good/safe RPM rev limiter value, or the LC vehicle speed limiter to? Don't worry, I'm not gonna launch until my FT's settle, and confirm that the CL delay decreases my AFRs at dip in (however I don't think this would matter using launch control... at WOT off the line, is it safe to assume the car is already in OL when I slip the clutch?). I'm hoping to get a LC answer soon, so I can adj that in the map before I flash it tomorrow. I hate driving around like granny after a map change =).

Also, I'm wondering if the minor map adjustments I made above will require me to stay outta boost for 50 miles, or if I could get away with 20 since MAF table A is already adjusted (that is, it was already calibrated).

Thank you!

EDIT: One last thing... what is the significance of my WGD% being maxed out? I know it's doing that to spool the turbo quickly, but is it bad that it is maxed? I though that would make sense going from vacuum to WOT like that as shown in my dyno excel sheet? Is it working properly?