CX-9 Head gasket repair?

[Jack Rabbit]

At the point this is out of warranty, why not see how much a new engine would cost? If a new engine installed is only $1000 more, get the new engine. I would rather pay for a new engine and minimal labor than a huge labor bill. Or see how much it would be for a local to install a used junkyard engine. Your frame is already 6 years old, do you want to sink another $5000 to $6000 grand into it when you might get a salvage engine installed for maybe $2000 or less total?

 

[MGMGT16]

Just did a quick search and it looks like junkyard engines are $4500-7000. No telling if they’d have the same issue as the current one too. I’d price out a new, full replacement engine and if it’s close in price, I’d opt for the updated engine over rebuilding the old one.

Totally anecdotal, but I had a dealership tell me I needed a new engine on my previous vehicle to the tune of $7k plus labor. Brought it to a specialty transmission place and it ended up costing $1500 to replace a bushing that the flex plate rides in.

 

[Jack Rabbit]

Just did a quick search and it looks like junkyard engines are $4500-7000. No telling if they’d have the same issue as the current one too. I’d price out a new, full replacement engine and if it’s close in price, I’d opt for the updated engine over rebuilding the old one.

Totally anecdotal, but I had a dealership tell me I needed a new engine on my previous vehicle to the tune of $7k plus labor. Brought it to a specialty transmission place and it ended up costing $1500 to replace a bushing that the flex plate rides in.

Wow. He's right. They're running between $2600 and $6700 for used, depending on your geography. $2600 with shipping and $800 installation might not be bad. But yeah if a new engine is not out of your price range that's the way to go instead of of $4000 in labor costs.

 

[Silly Wabbit]

It's my personal opinion that this dealership is taking advantage of you. Labor seems quite high for the head change. I would suggest trying a different dealership in hope a better service advisor will work with you + Mazda. You're not too far out of warranty, some good will should be applied IMO.

But I definitely agree with Jack rabbit that it might be worth looking into replacing the engine if cost is not too far off.

 

[jal142]

Is there anything price worthy on that list that I shouldn't have to replace that they are charging to replace?

Well, this is my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt:
1. The $314 "air hose" could probably be reused unless they destroy it while dissasembling the engine. Similarly, the $28 clamp that holds it on could likely be reused.
2. The $127 "fuel pipe" seems like something that should be reusable.

That's nearly $500 without breaking a sweat. Beyond that, things get nebulous. It is highly likely that you could reuse at lease some of the hardware (nuts and bolts), but without diving in and assessing how corroded things are, it's tough to reach a decision.

To me, it appears that the dealer has put together an estimate that basically includes every part that has even the remotest possibility of being deteriorated after the 5-6 years of use they've seen or damaged during the teardown. I also noticed that the dealer notes imply that they don't stock a lot of these parts (even the "consumable" stuff like nuts and seals) - to me, this is a veiled way to pad the bill. If, during disassembly, they pulled all the exhaust bolts off with no problem, I'm virtually certain they would reuse them. In the old days, they would not charge you for this unless they needed to replace them. Now, they want you to approve the estimate so they can "special order" everything ahead of time.

Honestly, I'd take this estimate to a private garage and see if they will beat it. They are charging you full list for parts (this stuff can be purchased for 20-30% off online), and the labor hours seem very generous. Keep in mind, though, that the 2016's have a head design that is more prone to cracking, so I'd think long and hard about just replacing the gasket. If it were me, I'd ask the dealer to swap the whole head to the updated design. Someone else on the forum had that done for $3150.

 

[Silly Wabbit]

That long list -might- be an approved list from Mazda to complete the head repair and they're just placing the order according to it. Long shot but possible I guess.

 

[youri]

The TSB has a list of non-reusable parts in it. The dealer invoice probably should be similar to it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10205999-0001.pdf

 

[Tribe&TrueRacin]

At the point this is out of warranty, why not see how much a new engine would cost? If a new engine installed is only $1000 more, get the new engine. I would rather pay for a new engine and minimal labor than a huge labor bill. Or see how much it would be for a local to install a used junkyard engine. Your frame is already 6 years old, do you want to sink another $5000 to $6000 grand into it when you might get a salvage engine installed for maybe $2000 or less total?

Not sure where you find your information but replacing the complete engine will cost more than what you're guessing!
Your estimate is way off at least in Canada and the USA from a reputable service shop!
I suggest maybe next time find some basic labor time per job before "guessing" what you think a service procedure would cost.
Now I am sure you may have the experience perhaps to do an engine exchange but even so you are missing replacement parts that will need to be done as well for any DIY an engine lift rental and all the tools that most may not have in their garage.

For other members reading this that do not own operate or work in a service shop I am sure if you look into a complete engine exchange the hours are 9-13+ hours. Even @ a bargain rate of 90 per hour that's 810-1170 dollar's in labor alone with no required parts replacement or parts that may need to be replaced during the R&R.
Reference ALLData engine R&R

 

[Tribe&TrueRacin]

Well, this is my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt:
Now, they want you to approve the estimate so they can "special order" everything ahead of time.

Honestly, I'd take this estimate to a private garage and see if they will beat it. They are charging you full list for parts (this stuff can be purchased for 20-30% off online), and the labor hours seem very generous.

Couple things I see in your response needing some clarification.
The reason for body shops, service shops and dealership specially now at this time need to order parts in advance for a service is the availability and shortages of parts nation and world wide on OEM and aftermarket quality parts. I have customers vehicles in one of the shops now that have parts on order for over 2 months. My friend that owns FIX-it Auto (body shop) will not even take a customers car until all the parts are in and he stated to me yesterday that he has had OEM parts on order for over 4 months for some insurance jobs. (see whom FIX-it Auto is)

As for pricing not sure where you get your thoughts and information but dealership DO NOT have a universal cost from the OE as so many think. The price for none warranty parts varies depending on so many factor to each dealership no one can really state the parts pricing structure for any one dealership! I buy from 3 in my area and I do get shop discount pricing and have found that some parts from the dealership in a 50 mile radius are eve different to me. My friend's in those dealership tell me that their cost varies on many parts because of what distribution center the OPE sends them from.


One other thing I stress be careful when deciding the parts replacement list given by any service facility as it might and often does effect the WARRATY of the completed work. Also taking in your own parts because you find them cheaper you will see on that completed invoice "customer supplied parts, list below" Should any of those fail you may get the part replaced where you purchased it but you will be paying the service again to have them replaced.
Naturally you personally can try to get some or all the labor reimbursed to you from the seller, or in rare circumstances directly from the part manufacture and usually only if the seller was an authorized dealer of that part you purchased.

 

[Jack Rabbit]

OP :

The labor hour(s) seem high. the labor $$ per hour seem high. I would not pay $5100 for a head gasket repair.

My experience is not relevant. However, I have done a few engine swaps when younger. Recently helped a friend get a salvage engine for $800 with local shop installation of roughly $900 for total bill of $1700. However that was for a mass marketed common vehicle. And ime and imo, based only on vehicles I've worked on, the actual engine swap can usually be done within a day(excluding waiting for parts).

Most of the large volume carmakers(Ford, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, etc.) used engines run between $700 and $1800 due to alot of available used engines, parts, etc. It appears Mazda doesn't sell that many cars hence less wrecked cars hence less used parts which cost more evidenced by the $2000 to $6700 prices for used cx9 engines.

Do this:

Locate and contact several shops within a 30-45 minute area of yourself.
Get estimates from them for :
New engine swap parts and labor
Used engine swap parts and labor
Head gasket repair parts an labor.

Also contact the dealer and get the same estimates.

You will then see which labor hours and labor prices are out of range.

look at all the estimates and make a decision.

It will take some phone calls and time but it will get you the best possible value for your $$ and may save you $1000's.

At this point, if keeping the vehicle, and the frame is intact and not overly corroded then the best value may be to have a new engine installed for a few thousand more than. just replacing the gasket.

Or it's possible you may opt to get a $2600 used engine and maybe $800 in labor and maybe a few hundred in parts for less than the head gasket repair.

Also timeframe wise, waiting for all the parts to come in on the head gasket repair may take alot longer than just swapping engines.

How much time do you have to wait for parts? if you go with the dealership and they will be keeping your car for a month or two while waiting for parts, you better make sure they provide you a loaner.

 

[181962]

One other thing I stress be careful when deciding the parts replacement list given by any service facility as it might and often does effect the WARRATY of the completed work.

Mazda warrants OEM replacement parts and labor at Mazda dealer shops for 12 months / 12,000 miles.

Mazda Warranty Information | Mazda USA

Every new Mazda comes with a limited warranty that provides coverage in the unlikely event a repair is needed in the first years of ownership.

www.mazdausa.com

I agree with the general gist of your posts. That the dealer would quote every possible part involved with a 67,000 mile vehicle without knowing what might be prudently reusable in advance makes sense, both to avoid future warranty claims and for customer satisfaction beyond that that 12/12,000. And as you say, given the wait for parts, they would not want to have to wait again for lack of a part after tearing into it, which would then require p*ssing off the customer with added charges or eating that cost.

As far as independent shops for a competitive quote, the first question should be about their warranty. The second question would be if the tech has experience with major work on this engine. In general you're more likely to get that at a dealer shop.

And I agree that generally speaking thoughts on the cost of major engine and transmission repairs, rebuilds or replacements are understated in these pages.

 

[181962]

I have done a few engine swaps when younger. Recently helped a friend get a salvage engine for $800 with local shop installation of roughly $900 for total bill of $1700. However that was for a mass marketed common vehicle. And ime and imo, based only on vehicles I've worked on, the actual engine swap can usually be done within a day(excluding waiting for parts).

You know, that might make sense to me if it was a very old, high mileage car where the high price of a rebuilt or new engine (or trans for that matter) would be a junking vs. fixing decision. A quick google search shows Carvana asking $27,590 for 2016 GT with 76k miles or $26,900 for a 2016 Touring Sport with 59k miles.

A salvage engine in a vehicle at these current valuation levels does not strike me as a good risk / reward proposition.

 

[Tribe&TrueRacin]

*Mazda warrants OEM replacement parts and labor at Mazda dealer shops for 12 months / 12,000 miles.

Mazda Warranty Information | Mazda USA

Every new Mazda comes with a limited warranty that provides coverage in the unlikely event a repair is needed in the first years of ownership.

www.mazdausa.com

As far as independent shops for a competitive quote, the first question should be about their warranty. The second question would be if the tech has experience with major work on this engine. In general you're more likely to get that at a dealer shop.

*Yes for NEW vehicles and used MAZDA still having a remainder left on the factory warranty ONLY!

Engine and or head warranties vary at the dealership discretion. You must remember these are independently owned dealerships and none FACTORY service work and warranty is different than all other service work performed by a dealership.

It is always an assumption but many dealership do not have FACTORY certified Technicians. Some have ASE Certified Technicians but in either case it is something as you pointed out to consider. ASK the service writer or service manager. Honestly most dealership will use a general mechanic for basic things like transmission and engine swaps and have a trained or at least experienced diagnostic Technician or mechanic check the ECU and engine after the installation was completed.
If going independent shops, I always recommend seeking out shops that have the ASE sign on their building they can only hang that if they have "current" certified ASE mechanics or Technicians. But again for basic work on a experienced mechanic can do most everything with the possible exception of the Diagnostic OBDII ECU health checking and adjusting.

Honestly if the MAZDA was still running I would have checked for the current DTC's and monitors made note of them. I would assign an engine swap to one of the mechanics and follow-up with checking ,resetting the DTCs and monitors, then a couple of engine running cycling before calling the customer to pick up his ride! Swapping out most engines is "grunt work" not brain surgery.

 

[Silly Wabbit]

This is a public forum for noobs, to amateurs, to pros and everything in between. We should be able to voice our reasonable speculations without any negative comments. If only pros can chime in, then I'm not sure what's the point of this. I think we have established that if op needs to replace head due to the known issue of the 2.5T, then per TSB labor should be only 11hr instead of the quoted 18hr. I think this is reasonable to say why we question the estimation provided by the dealership and why people such as myself have trust issue with DEALERSHIPS, not independent shops.

 

[Tribe&TrueRacin]

Used MAZDA engines as well used MAZDA parts one can contact the NATION WIDE RECYCLES PARTS LOCATER often find what you are looking for.
I have to often do this for estimates when someone comes in with a ridiculously low service estimate. I also try to point out that what they think may be a high labor cost is generally not and can show them what the average labor rate per hour is in their area, i.e. state and or county the reside in. Now this is where some that seem to be good at finding internet information should look into before guessing what they think prices and costs are?


IMHO their is no NEGATIVE comments or responses, but some understand you suggesting that and why!
I do believe and can see in forums information this forum is privately owned!


The TSB suggested for the reference of 11 hours R&R head does not account for the possible and likely other items needing to be replaced during the procedure!


I do agree that a good percentage of service works comes to us (independent service shops) because people in general have "TRUST ISSUES" with dealerships!

 

[Silly Wabbit]

IMHO their is no NEGATIVE comments or responses, but some understand you suggesting that and why!

The TSB suggested for the reference of 11 hours R&R head does not account for the possible and likely other items needing to be replaced during the procedure!

Just want to make sure we're here to support one another the best we can and not have any verbal disagreements that non-pro comments have no merit.

But as we're talking about pros, the deviation should be +/- 1hr maybe 2 at most? OP being quoted an extra 7 hours. That's incompetent work don't you think?

 

[Jack Rabbit]

OP:

My advice is sound. Contact several indy shops as well as two dealers and get quotes for:
1. New engine swap labor/parts
2. Used engine swap labor/parts
3. Head gasket repair swap labor/parts.

then you can make an informed decision based on new engine cost, used engine costs, and head gasket repairs incl parts/labor.

It's that simple.

Everything else is noise.

 

[Tribe&TrueRacin]

Just want to make sure we're here to support one another the best we can and not have any verbal disagreements that non-pro comments have no merit.

But as we're talking about pros, the deviation should be +/- 1hr maybe 2 at most? OP being quoted an extra 7 hours. That's incompetent work don't you think?

Yes I agree.

But your still not getting the point reading your own posted information and what the OP was quoted. Go look again and you will read that the TSB does not include all the estimated work and parts replacement that the OP received.
You may also find a shop or friend that has an account with ALLData (as one example of service support programs for shops) and you can see exactly what I am talking about.

 

[sm1ke]

The information about used MAZDA engines as well used MAZDA parts is not accurate. You can contact the NATION WIDE RECYCLES PARTS LOCATER and find hundreds of them across the USA!
I have to often do this for estimates when someone comes in with a ridiculously low service estimate. I also try to point out that what they think may be a high labor cost is generally not and can show them what the average labor rate per hour is in their area, i.e. state and or county the reside in. Now this is where some that seem to be good at finding internet information should look into before guessing what they think prices and costs are?


IMHO their is no NEGATIVE comments or responses, but some understand you suggesting that and why!

The TSB suggested for the reference of 11 hours R&R head does not account for the possible and likely other items needing to be replaced during the procedure!


I do agree that a good percentage of service works comes to us (independent service shops) because people in general have "TRUST ISSUES" with dealerships!

If you are going to ask others to be open-minded, then you should be willing to be open-minded to others as well, mainly about how your responses to them may be interpreted. In terms of your technical knowledge, you've made it clear that you have substantial experience and knowledge in the industry, but when someone offers an opinion, instead of shooting it down, explain why you have a different opinion, citing your experience, then leave it at that. I have noticed that in your recent posts, you're explaining things better (IMO), but using all caps and bold/italicized text may sometimes come off as aggressive. It seems like a minor thing but it can be easily misinterpreted.

 

[sm1ke]

OP:

My advice is sound. Contact several indy shops as well as two dealers and get quotes for:
1. New engine swap labor/parts
2. Used engine swap labor/parts
3. Head gasket repair swap labor/parts.

then you can make an informed decision based on new engine cost, used engine costs, and head gasket repairs incl parts/labor.

It's that simple.

Everything else is noise.

The point about being open-minded is for everyone in this thread, by the way. Advice is welcomed from all angles and all perspectives. Soak it all in and make a decision based on the collective information, not necessarily one person who thinks their way is the only way.