Cryotreat Tranny?

[TurfBurn]

That's pretty much what Dr. Jay Samuel's was telling me... there is anecdotal evidence, but no actual scientificly measured evidence. I've heard a good number of things about wear... so I guess I could maybe somewhat believe in that... but any belief that it makes a part handle more stress or so forth...

In all honesty if it makes the material harder... that can actually reduce the toughness and make it more prone to cracking or rupture. Just look at a comparison between martensite and austenite (and I mean of the same alloy... yes both will exist in the same alloy actually... heat treating is to change the ratios of the two in the material itself...). They are both steel, but they behave VERY differently... martensite is prone to chipping and cracking.. but is very hard (it's what good knives are made of.. hence it's so easy to crack off a knife tip or chip it) and austenite is your run of the mill soft steel that bends well, but would make a terrible knife because it is not hard enough to hold an edge.

 

[Little Beavis]

I have also read articles and I can't see how it "works" from an engineering standpoint neither.

That has been my problem and is also why I didn't do it when I had the tranny torn apart. Waste of money.

As for people getting touchy about this subject, chill out. . .no need for "name calling".

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

Sorry to fly off the handle..I just know that DragP5 from vegas is running craze power and he has his tranny(s) treated..thats all i was saying man. i don't know anything about it.

 

[mazda2002]

Uh... you seem to have missed the point.. The cryo treat has nothing to do with it... it's a gimmick.. there is NO evidence it actually works... if it was significant it would metallurgically be indicative. The hardness, Poisson's ratio, Young's Modulus or other material property would have to be modified... and nothing to date has shown that.. so my point is it's BS and has never been proven... just because some guy has lots of power and a cryoed tranny doesn't mean anything... you could very likely have one without the other.

I agree that finding a powerful car that has a cry treated tranny, doesn't prove that cry treatment gives specific properties. But, since there is no logical explanation for cry treatments, I would see this as the best test possible. It would, at least prove, if he has broken a new non-treated, non-stressed, no defective tranny and doesn't manage to break the treated tranny(in a 2.0L protege) that his treatment was a success. I am not 100% sure but I believe that this treatment can be duplicated.(If they do this in the industry, it usually means that they have constant results.)

In all honesty if it makes the material harder... that can actually reduce the toughness and make it more prone to cracking or rupture. Just look at a comparison between martensite and austenite (and I mean of the same alloy... yes both will exist in the same alloy actually... heat treating is to change the ratios of the two in the material itself...).

Good point, it is important to specify that harder isn't necessarily better.

PS: Austenite is found at high temperature, this might be a translation problem from me but just wanted to make sure.(So I could change my post, if I have made a mistake, not trying to be a dick about it.)


SpicyMchaggis,
If you could find out if that guy you are talking about is running a high powered protege with a cry treated tranny, I would like to hear about it.

 

[TurfBurn]

I agree that finding a powerful car that has a cry treated tranny, doesn't prove that cry treatment gives specific properties. But, since there is no logical explanation for cry treatments, I would see this as the best test possible. It would, at least prove, if he has broken a new non-treated, non-stressed, no defective tranny and doesn't manage to break the treated tranny(in a 2.0L protege) that his treatment was a success. I am not 100% sure but I believe that this treatment can be duplicated.(If they do this in the industry, it usually means that they have constant results.)

Well at the reverse on that though.. unless he was breaking trannies that weren't cryo treated you still have nothing. And NO ONE has broken a tranny on the 2.0L from power. From abuse yes... from bad shifting yes... but no one has spun a shaft or shattered gears.... so the cryo tranny holding power still doesn't mean anything unless the same guy was breaking trannies repeatedly and then suddenly stopped when he got a cryo tranny.

Good point, it is important to specify that harder isn't necessarily better.

PS: Austenite is found at high temperature, this might be a translation problem from me but just wanted to make sure.(So I could change my post, if I have made a mistake, not trying to be a dick about it.)

austenite is also found in standard steel. There is a full distribution of the 3 forms of steel (austenite, martensite and one other I can't remember) in a steel compound. Tempering is a way of "adjusting" the ratios. Austenitic steel is the only mangetic steel. "soft" steel has higher ratios of austenite than a hardened steel.

Edit: just looked it up.. you are somewhat correct in that normally it doesn't exist at room temps... but with nickel etc alloys it can and does... pearlite is the other one.... I'm pretty sure pearlite is the different grain structure that consists of the iron and carbon intermixing... and that is the softer one... slightly different mix structure from that of martensite.

SpicyMchaggis,
If you could find out if that guy you are talking about is running a high powered protege with a cry treated tranny, I would like to hear about it.

 

[mazda2002]

Well at the reverse on that though.. unless he was breaking trannies that weren't cryo treated you still have nothing. And NO ONE has broken a tranny on the 2.0L from power. From abuse yes... from bad shifting yes... but no one has spun a shaft or shattered gears.... so the cryo tranny holding power still doesn't mean anything unless the same guy was breaking trannies repeatedly and then suddenly stopped when he got a cryo tranny.


[/font]

austenite is also found in standard steel. There is a full distribution of the 3 forms of steel (austenite, martensite and one other I can't remember) in a steel compound. Tempering is a way of "adjusting" the ratios. Austenitic steel is the only mangetic steel. "soft" steel has higher ratios of austenite than a hardened steel.

Edit: just looked it up.. you are somewhat correct in that normally it doesn't exist at room temps... but with nickel etc alloys it can and does... pearlite is the other one.... I'm pretty sure pearlite is the different grain structure that consists of the iron and carbon intermixing... and that is the softer one... slightly different mix structure from that of martensite.

Aren't there any hard-core drag proteges that go threw part pretty quickly out ther somewere?


The three main constituants are austenite, martensite and ferrite. I have heard of Perlite, Martensite, Bainite but never austenite as a tipe of temper. It doesn't really matter, I will do a search when I have the time.

Kind of getting of subject.

 

[TurfBurn]

Aren't there any hard-core drag proteges that go threw part pretty quickly out ther somewere?


The three main constituants are austenite, martensite and ferrite. I have heard of Perlite, Martensite, Bainite but never austenite as a tipe of temper. It doesn't really matter, I will do a search when I have the time.

Kind of getting of subject.

GotZoom was busting up parts for a while before he quite... but it was pretty much all axles and shift forks from what I remember..

Yes you are right on the metals... I am confusing the perlite an austenite with one another I think... it's been about 3 years since my materials stuff... but I think you are correct... but I was more illustrating that you had to change the consituents to alter the material properties and cryoing doesn't do that to any measureable extent based on what I've read and seen... nobody has seen a specific difference in consituent makeup. So that was all I was getting at... I just kept thinking of austenitic stainless steel versus martensitic stainless tell because I DO know that those definitely are correct....

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

his name is DragP5..look em up

 

[mazda2002]

Don't see his name in the members list.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

I must have it wrong..i'll snoop around..he posted about it not too long ago in the photo/video..he as showing his 3 motors and sweet garage..etc..etc..he's in las vegas..

 

[PRO 5]

Yeah he treated his tranny but his car is not up and running yet. So we will not be able to get any info on if it helps or not. Even if it was up and running, we still would not know unless he uses a stock tranny until it broke then put in his treated tranny to see if it lasted longer.

Dave

 

[LinuxRacr]

The guy you all are looking for is turbo_p5, and the name of the thread is Drag P5: http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49619&highlight=Cryo

 

[turbo_p5]

Well, this looks like a heated debate, dont know if I want to affend anyone.....J/K.
Well, yes I got my gears, forks, syncros, etc. cryoed, and to be really honest I dont know if it works or not. My car is still not running yet, but soon. But when I had my motor apart and my trans apart to put my LSD in, my engine builder had told me about this company that they work closely with that cryoed parts for NASCAR. Well he told me that it would cost about $200, for however many parts I can fit in the "bucket". So I decided to.

I had run into a company that got 750hp, and 9sec timeslips in a MSP, that were going through gears. (Until they did something, to stop the breaking. )They wouldnt say what they had done but thats the only thing I could think of that they did. And we all here have looked and searched to better any part of our cars, and personally I could find actual gears that were any different, besideds the gears that Tripoint sells, but thats for road racing, different from drag.

The only thing I could say about this process is that it changed the color of the metal. And if its good enough for NASCAR, its good enough for me. But I wont really know till its running. But I'll keep you guys posted.. Have you guys seen my new manifold, it looks crazy......

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64108

-----Sorry Edited the tranny stopped breaking until they did something.-----

 

[mp5jeff]

750hp 9 sec msp? hmm, not on an fs-de motor, the required turbo for that much power would nevAr spool, did you acctualy see this in person or was it just word of mouth?

 

[turbo_p5]

750hp 9 sec msp? hmm, not on an fs-de motor, the required turbo for that much power would nevAr spool, did you acctualy see this in person or was it just word of mouth?

Well, I had seen it in a magazine. April 2004 Import Racer. I scanned a pic of it sorry im not a Photoshop guy, did it in paint. here you go

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

holy freggin crap batman..its funny i was talking to my boys over at my local scca speed shop..apparentely there were a couple MSPs running scca in the grand-am series..going through trannies like no tomorrow, they eventually ditched the MSP's and are running 1.6's now..haha..

 

[mp5jeff]

they must have that thing reving to 13 grand.

 

[mp5jeff]

that or they are using a 200shot to spool the turbo...

 

[turbo_p5]

Really couldnt tell you, but that is enough evidence to give me hope for our motors.

 

[SpicyMchaggis]

jeff are you referring to my post? 13k revs? nitrous? this is grand-am series SCCA..by far one of the strictest classes..you can't upgrade the tranny either..this is straight up abusive track racing..i think tri-point runs in this class, or one like it.