Cryogenic intake system: general question

[biochembruin]

I think you are wrong here. The stuff we put in A/C pumps can get draw out more heat than CO2, otherwise we would be using CO2 in our A/C units!

not true. it would take too much energy to cycle CO2 from a liquid to a gas, and back. this is due to the high latent heat of vaporization associated with CO2. The A/C coolant has a lower latent heat of vaporization, but is still high enough to cool the surrounding air. Also, running the A/C pipe through the intake as a heat sink as twilightprotege was suggesting would mean the A/C condenser would have to be running, which takes power away from the engine. In any rate, you cant vent the A/C directly onto the intercooler, as you can with the DEI setup. Besides, theres no reason you couldnt run the DEI setup in conjunction with a nitrous setup. I was simply wondering if anyone had tried it on his or her car (forced induction or N/A) and what was their experience with it.

 

[ddogg777]

Yes it does have implications for a NA system. Can anyone calculate the expected performance gains be dropping the intake air temp by 60%?

What is your intake and exhaust temp?

 

[kopp0041]

I don't know hy temp is, I'm assuming it's the same as everyone else. As for the CryO2 system, I'm also wondering if anyone has used this setup on thier car like biochembruin is asking.

 

[shaunmp5]

Did anyone notice that, for a N/A car, this intake and tank kit would cost more than $520.00? That's a lot of dough for an "unguaranteed" amount of horsepower.

 

[kopp0041]

That's why we wnat to see a dyno or estimated HP gains.

 

[ddogg777]

Okay, here is my guestimate with my memory of thermodynamics. If we say the intake is 100 degrees and the exhaust is 1100 degrees (I have no actual idea) and you can lower the intake by 50 degrees, you will increase HP by about 4-5%. This isn't much, maybe 5HP for Proteges. But, and I stress BUT, that is if you use the same mass of air. You have to realize that colder air will be more dense and a larger mass of air will be shot into the cylinder. This translates into even more energy. This is what turbos do, increase the density of the air charge...

 

[melicha8]

A/C has been discussed before and we all concluded that this is not plausible . Energy is conserved (e in = e out) so in an ideal world where there is no parasitic loss from friction and such, you would not net any power out of this mod. Energy required to cool the air would be used up by the energy produced in cooling the intake charge. I hate to say it though, we don't live in this kind of world and energy is always transferred elsewhere netting a loss in HP. Best case scenario no power loss, our scenario, loss in HP.

I was thinking about doing the CO2 thing but I'm sure as hell not going to pay for some kit that can be made by sourcing some paintball parts and various other things from home depot. It's not like it's wet nitrous injection. It's just a container opening up and flowing cold air over other air.

 

[changedman]

ya, like compressed air (xcept co2 is even colder and purer)

 

[melicha8]

Good to see we have another biochem major in the house. I'm at UC Davis. I'm actually running an agar gel on some genomic tomatoe DNA right now. Go nerds!!!

 

[ddogg777]

A/C has been discussed before and we all concluded that this is not plausible . Energy is conserved (e in = e out) so in an ideal world where there is no parasitic loss from friction and such, you would not net any power out of this mod. Energy required to cool the air would be used up by the energy produced in cooling the intake charge. I hate to say it though, we don't live in this kind of world and energy is always transferred elsewhere netting a loss in HP. Best case scenario no power loss, our scenario, loss in HP.

If you are dealing with the same mass of air charge then don't do it!! You will lose power through the engine's inefficiency. But, if you increase the fuel charge (due to higher density cool air) and tune for it, you will increase energy output. That is why a supercharger can work; it robs power but the extra fuel charge with proper tuning makes up for it.

I was thinking about doing the CO2 thing but I'm sure as hell not going to pay for some kit that can be made by sourcing some paintball parts and various other things from home depot. It's not like it's wet nitrous injection. It's just a container opening up and flowing cold air over other air.

Yeah, I was looking at the kit and thinking the same thing too! Besides, I'm a paintball enthusiast and a have a 50lb tank in house that I could use to fill the smaller tank up. Cost $25 per 50lb of CO2.

Oh yeah, I like Biochem, but I'm a Mechy!!!

 

[ddogg777]

ya, like compressed air (xcept co2 is even colder and purer)

Can you buy liquid compressed air? I don't think so but that would be sweet, then you could just spray it directly into the intake rather than through some tubes! Actually, liquid O2 would be even better. Now that I think about it, we could just spray liquid NOS into the intake! But one thing is for sure, don't spray liquid CO2 into your intake! Oh man, just thinking about that makes me laugh... (rofl)

 

[infrared5]

So do you think you'll get the same hp gains from the CryO2 system as a nitrous setup? Im not saying its just the temp, but the added oxygen that increases hp with nitrous, what more than temp does the CryO2 kit offer? To my understanding its a bulb in the intake the CO2 passes through to lower temps. But the CryO2 kit would be much more effective on an intercooler app due to the cost of CO2 vs. nitrous, but does one create lower temps than another?

 

[ddogg777]

You will not get the same gains as from a NOS setup. NOS will cool the fuel charge more because it is squirted directly into the mixture. The CO2 passes through little pipes much like an air conditioner (which is exactly what it is doing). Also, NOS is a better oxidizer than air to burn the fuel. Your exhaust temps will be hotter. So, NOS will lower intake temp and increase exhaust temp. The CO2 method only lowers intake temp, and not as much due to not being injected straight in....

 

[ddogg777]

Oh, and you're right, liquid CO2 is the cheapest...

 

[ozz]

I've seen the Cryogenic system on a mitsu 3000vr4 and it was pretty sweet/the intake tube was completly covered in frost/it was so cold you couldn't touch it(seen it at Carlisle)

 

[infrared5]

I am assuming that the CryO2 system requires alot of CO2 to be passed through it to keep it cool, right? Or do you give it a cool charge and thats it?

 

[Kenetix]

Its usually drops core temp from around 30-40 degrees. An extra 5-15 hp increase. This just goes on your IC.

/members/Kenetix/subarustore_1745_3206999.gif

 

[kopp0041]

That's great if you have an IC, but what about for us NA people? any ideas of gains then??

 

[big_ben]

Hey,

So Ive read some people mention the cryogenic intake system by DEI, which sprays liquid CO2 onto the intercooler to cool it, and has a heat sink in the air intake to drop air intake temperature. You can also cool the fuel rail with it. I was wondering if anyone has installed this on a stock 03 MSP, and what are the benefits and/or problems they had with the system.

It doesn't spray liquid CO2. To get CO2 to liquid form it would have to be VERY cold. But you are partially right. When CO2 gas decompresses and comes into contact with the air, the water in the air instantly condensates. When you spray a CO2 fire extinguisher, the "smoke" you see is not the CO2, it's the water vapor. CO2 is colorless so it is invisible.

Just a clarification.

 

[big_ben]

Wow, I am late on this post, I didn't see the 3 pages before I posted my previous one.