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- '08 CPW Mazdaspeed 3
I'll try 'em out...thanks (well, at least the 91 octane...no point in doing the 93 in the middle of winter LOL)
cobb?standback?
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i know about the standback, i am talking about the current standback, also the guy who put down more power without an ap was running 103 maps
I raced some one with the same mods, exact same, and the only difference is he had an ap with 103 maps, pulled him every single time from a dig/rolls
how about laloosh car who put down 289 with a custom map from christian but 327 with his standback and his own tune
facts are facts, go live with you ap that "feels" fast
let me kno when you hit the strip and cant figure out why you cant run the times you expect
off the shelf maps dont work with these cars
Oh ok. No problem I see you have Laloosh's knob stuck in your throat. Explains everything.
Let me see. You pulled someone running an AP using the 103Maps and you were basically stock running no higher boost? Not going to happen unless the driver mod sucks. Also, the ONLY way you can not put down more power with an AP over Stock is if you're not hitting the right boost. There is simply NO WAY and you're so full of s*** to try and say there is. So your friend running the 103Map was NOT hitting boost, thus he DIDN'T have the right Map for his car. OTS Maps are just fine if you actually use the one for your mods.
I'm not going to debate this with you anymore man. You simply need to stop posting BS in the forums. Laloosh and his Brokeback Mountain cronies all have bad reps on all forums including the few that LOOSH can still post in.
You can think he is God if you want but I was around when he sold every CPE part he had and slammed CPE to the point of being banned on most forums (much like he does with the AP today but a lot worse if you can believe it). Only to be a total hypocrite and is now CPE's Cheerleader.
I, on the other hand, simply believe both products have their good and bad. Both products are not for everyone. I try my best to keep an open unbiased opinion of each and simply pass on the pro's and con's.
Here is a FACT for sir. If I wanted to push the limits of my car, get the most HP I could squeak out and ensure that every single time I mash the peddle I take 5k miles of tread off my tires, I would go with the SB. However, I simply wanted more power than stock with the most ease of use. I have no need to be the fastest or most powerful MS3. I wanted a tune that had more power, no knock and leaner. I got all that an I'm 100% happy.
Also, I'm a patient man. I know the Street Tune is coming for the AP so I have faith that the AP will be a better tuning solution than the SB in the near future. I don't mind waiting.
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Its really up to you (OP) to decide what you want, you know the features of both, I'm a fan of CP-E just because when I compared their stuff with other companies (which I wont name since people go crazy fanboy if I do) the quality of CP-E is just that much better, and yes it is more expensive. So knowing this, I would always choose the standback over the AP because one tune does not fit "all" mentality that COBB is having kind of pisses me off, and this game about beta maps and what not is just such a joke, a person in NY will have a different tune than someone in FL.
I don't think anybody will argue that you will get better power and a better running car with a proper standback tune. If you want to get a AP, there are quite a few people selling there's online, don't think that is a good thing though.
I don't think anybody will argue that you will get better power and a better running car with a proper standback tune. If you want to get a AP, there are quite a few people selling there's online, don't think that is a good thing though.
Bravnik, we all know you stand by the AP, and personal opinions are completely fine, and that is why we have the forums to discuss different topics. But you go kind of psycho over the AP, you have to admit, that the AP fanboy club is getting smaller and smaller and there are quiet a few people that buy the AP, tried to use it, realized it doesn't do what it says it would, and than want to get rid of it.
Also, about monitoring everything with guages and the standback, everyone should really have a dashhawk if they are tunning their cars, Standback or AP.
Also, about monitoring everything with guages and the standback, everyone should really have a dashhawk if they are tunning their cars, Standback or AP.
Here is the deal. I don't go Psycho over the AP. I go Psycho over people saying it is worthless and/or junk. I would do the exact same thing for the SB. I STAND BY both products as I feel they are both good products for what they do. I'm not an AP fanboi, I'm a simple forum user that hates to see people say stupid s*** about products based off of incorrect or false information. To say the AP does not do what it is suppose to do if a false statement as well as an ignorant one. NOWHERE will you find the AP saying it will give you X amount of HP/TQ. I don't want to see people miss out on something that very well might make them 100% happy all because some SB loving yahoo spreads a bunch of false info.
The problem that I have is people like yourself who have nether product giving people advise on what they should get. You have ZERO personal experience to base any opinion off of. I'm basing my opinion off of the AP on personal experience. I try to share my expectations on the AP and how it met them. Nothing more or less. I tell people I don't expect the highest HP/TQ or the fastest car. I simply wanted more power, a tune that reduced my 7deg of KR I got on stock ECU and to run a lot leaner than stock. I got all that and then some. I ended up having the most power of the 10 or so MS3's in my area. Go figure.
If you want to get real. The only SB user I know spent days on the Dyno trying to get it tuned right. The best he got was 263WHP on a Mustang Dyno. Good numbers for sure seeing as that is almost 300WHP on a DynoJet. However, his car ran like s*** constantly. He had every bolt-on you can have except a BT. The car was his Track Car which he Auto-Crossed and did track days with. He is so serious that he even had it counter balanced for his additional weight in the car, to give you an idea of just how serious he was. He sold the SB because it sucked for him. Big Deal. Life goes on.
The truth is that the AP will meet most peoples needs as most of use don't want or need the most HP/TQ or Fastest car. Those that do want to push the limits, I tell them each and every time the SB is for them. I don't run down the SB and try to convince them the AP is better. I give them a 100% unbiased opinion. Unlike your average SB Fanboi.
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- '08 CPW Mazdaspeed 3
I, for one, am happy with my AP. It did just what I thought it would do...nothing more, nothing less.
Wow, first things first, I don't know who this person you are talking about that tried to do all this tuning and it sucked for him, does he really have any experience tuning or was he just guessing as to what he was doing.
Second, on COBB's very own website, they currently have a rough Graph showing power gains with there tunes, they used to show PERCENTAGE gains but they stopped doing that because people were proving how bogus those gains are.
Third, There mindset of "ONE TUNE FITS ALL" is so irritating and for them to say in one sentance how hard and specific it is to tune the mazdaspeed3 and than try to push one tune for everybody is very idiotic. The fact that they are putting out these beta maps just drives me nuts when a tune in Cali will not work right with a tune in NY. People are getting crazy numbers for knock, and are actually removing there AP because of the higher than stock knock numbers they are getting.
Fourth, you do support the AP over anything else, and than you refuse to admit how dangerous the AP is. Just because it's easy to plug it in, does not mean it's good for the car. If someone is going to tune there car, tune it so it would last them, COBB's generic tunes will never be good for all Mazdaspeed3's.
This is alot of talking and nothing I have said was incorrect or false, almost all that I have stated has come from COBB's own website or this and other forums. I am currently running a standback and monitoring it with a dashhawk, I also just got the CP-E boost cut eliminator flash so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from.
first things the idiot didnt know how to tune, he should be tuning on the street where there is a load, a dyno tune isnt as good as a street tune if done correctly because a dyno cant replicate the load on the street,
i am not a standback fanboi, at one point i thought i might get an ap but you have to realize this isnt and evo were dealing with, every tune has to be done specifically, off the shelf tunes dont do s*** as every car is different
OK Man
Fact - Pre AP I did 248WHP, Post AP I did 289WHP. Not too shabby if you ask me. However, maybe I'm wrong. (Note: Pre AP I was running MBC/Map Clamp at 18PSI).
Fact - I DO NOT support the AP over anything else. I ask very simple questions then make a suggestion based off of their reply. If you actually read my reply's you would read that I always ask what their goals are. If they simply want a tune with more power I suggest an AP. If they want to push the limits I suggest the SB. You're totally full of s*** to say I support the AP over anything else. What I do is support the AP when people spew a bunch of crap about it sucking. I happen to like my AP and it by far does not SUCK for me.
Fact - GST Motorsports in Hayward CA tried to tune his car for him. A very well known tuner for the Subie Crowd. He didn't tune it himself. He paid good money to get it done. But that is nether here nor there, it is simply the only experience I have personally seen with the SB, he sold it to BRon who then sold it to get a AP. My point was that just because it didn't do well on his car, you don't see me screaming and telling everyone that the SB is a POS because he had issues. I'm ADULT enough to know that issue can arise for MANY MANY reasons and I'm not so closed minded that I believe just because it didn't work for it that the entire SB is a peace of junk.
Fact - Sea-Level is what matters to tuning. It really depends on where you're at in NY based off of where the tune was done in CA. Tunes done at 100FT will probably run like crap on cars at 4kFT. Sure. Never said that was not the case. However there will be very little difference between a tune done at 100ft and one at 1000ft. Now that is not to say that I couldn't take my MS3 to Lake Tahoe because it will run so bad. It simply means it will not run at it's full potential. The ECU with an AP can still compensate for the increased elevation. Something that CAN'T be done with your SB.
Maybe you're looking at it all wrong. The SB provides NOTHING out of the box. Without tweaking it you get a MBC/Map Clamp at best. The AP does not have a tuning solution so they provide maps based off of mods. They provide MANY maps to best fit your needs. Is that a perfect solution? NO, but I have no problem with it as my car runs just fine. When the AP Street Tune comes out this issue will go away. Then we will be able to actually test Apples against Apples. At that point my opinion of the SB will probably change as a Flash is ALWAYS better than a Standback due to actually changing thresholds and not just lying to your ECU.
Fact - All manufacturers show graphs of their data. I'm also adult enough to know that they can be different from car to car, dyno to dyno. Cobb does not state ANYWHERE saying that you WILL get 40WHP if you use a certain Map.
You mods? Last I knew you had a Synapse BPV, CPE Flash some other crap and no SB. So if you got a SB you got one reciently and based on your comment above it's not tuned yet. Maybe I'm wrong.
Simply put. I'm happy that you're happy with your SB/Flash. Why can't you be happy that people are happy with their AP? You simply had the time and money to put into the SB and I'm cheap and don't want to spend that kind of cash or not have my car for a couple days while I mail my ECU to CPE.
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When IS the street tune thing supposed to come out? I wonder if anyone around here (Michigan) could tune it
Suppose to be the first quarter of 2009. In other words, SOON I hope (boom07)
The street tune would be for you to do it yourself. The pro-tune is for tuners but they should be easy to find as there is usually a large Subie community in most areas and they can tune the AP as it's one of the larger tuning solutions for the Subie.
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Ah, that's cool. Guess I'll have to read up on it. Thanks for the info!
This one quote is what is obvious to everyone that you support the AP over the SB. The complete opposite of what you said is true, the AP is what you are pushing the limits with, NOT the standback. With the AP, you are pushing the limits of what your car can do with a generic tune (crappy tune). There is alot taken into account into specific cars and specific readings people get from such devices as the dashawk. For example, no tuner will ask for my mods on my car and have a tune ready for my standback that he did for another car. In theory where everything is perfect, that would work, but that doesn't work in the real world, and that is why people that initially buy the AP end up switching to a standback.
The ratio that I have seen on all the forums is close to, for every 1 standback a person wants to get rid of, there are 10 people with AP trying to get rid of theres. I can go right now and find alot more AP people are selling on the marketplace than SB.
Also, I'm still confused as to how you "friend" couldn't get a proper tune with his standback, maybe the guy doing the tunning was not familiar with the very simple software it comes with?
COBB also came out claiming Percentage gains on the AP tunes, that is a fact, but when people did before and afters, they got nowhere near those percentage increases and that is why COBB started posting that rough graph showing potential gains.
Look, the only plus I will give to the AP is that it's cheaper and easy to use. But it does not mean it's good for the car, and the power gains have never come close to the SB. This has been proven many of times where similar modded cars but one has an AP and the other has the SB, the SB outperfermed it easily.
TO the original post, you have too look at it this way, the AP is cheaper and simple to use, but those two are the only benefits you get from that. I instead paid for something that is more expensive but I know will tuned for my car specifically, give me better HP and TQ gains and in the long run will be better for my turbo and engine all around. Just like those get rich schemes you see on TV, looks great and cheap and might give you the quick excitment at first, but you will end up blowing your money away on something that is worth nothing.
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Bravnik - I agree with everything you've written and in fact could've said just about everything you said word for word as I too owned both tuning solutions. For me the AP worked better and I feel more confident in it's development ... doesn't mean I'm going to slam the SB as the guys there at CP-E were gracious and helpful and are a boon to the development of these engines.
The AP has a money-back guarantee as I understand it. The SB likely too but I'm not 100% sure.
The stock tune the car comes with off the assembly line has built-in safety margins in it's tuning and Cobb (like all tuners) will use up some of that safety margin by leaning the AFR out a bit, advancing the timing a bit, and upping the boost a couple of psi.
If you want to trim those safety margins yourself by doing your own tuning, then at this point the SB is for you. If you don't and want to run a map that's better than stock and will also allow you to tune yourself or have a pro tune in the near future, then the AP is for you.
The AP has a money-back guarantee as I understand it. The SB likely too but I'm not 100% sure.
The stock tune the car comes with off the assembly line has built-in safety margins in it's tuning and Cobb (like all tuners) will use up some of that safety margin by leaning the AFR out a bit, advancing the timing a bit, and upping the boost a couple of psi.
If you want to trim those safety margins yourself by doing your own tuning, then at this point the SB is for you. If you don't and want to run a map that's better than stock and will also allow you to tune yourself or have a pro tune in the near future, then the AP is for you.
Speed3Rookie
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Ok once again. I just don't see how you get that I'm biased for the AP out of that quote. Because I don't push a tool down someone throat that they don't need? I'm in the computer business. People ask me all the time whats a good computer for them. I do the EXACT same thing to them as the AP/SB, I ask them simply what they want to do with the PC. I don't recommend a Gaming PC to someone who wants to do Internet Browsing and check their Gmail. I would NEVER in a million years recommend the SB to someone who simply wants a better tune than stock with the least effort.
Look if you're happy with the SB then good. Obviously the AP was not for you. I'm happy with my AP as the SB was just WAY overkill for me. I would not go the SB route unless I was really wanting a custom tune now, wanted to run another 5v source and/or wanted to go BT. None of those were my goals. If they were, I would have gone the SB route myself.
You quote that the AP has never showed any power. That is because there are only 2 AP Tuners in the entire US. What you fail to mention is there is an MS3 that did 312WHP (I believe it was) using the AP and that was on a MUSTANG dyno. Add 20% to get a DynoJet number and you have a VERY nice gain. You also miss the POINT: And that is that those like myself who picked the AP didn't pick it for the most HP/TQ. I had issues with Knock and I wanted more Power than Stock so I could stop using my MBC/MAP Clamp as one day it hit hard, the next it hit hardly at all. MBC/Map Clamp was just too flaky for me.
The SB outperforms the AP ONLY because the AP is not tunable yet. However, we do have a good idea based on the people who have actually got it done in Oregon. 312WHP on a Mustang with a stock turbo and your basic bolt-ons is nothing to sneeze at. We need to see a Pro-Tune of a big turbo setup though.
Now you're calling the AP Snake Oil? I did 248WHP with an MBC/Map Clamp, I did 289WHP with the AP. Snake Oil and As Seen On TV? I don't think so and its stupid ass s*** like this that is wrong. You will NEVER see me say that about the SB and you have the nerve to call me BIASED?
Here is a tip for all the new people out there curious about which tuning solution to go with;
Ignore the Idiots who say one solution sucks. Most like Alex here have no clue what they are talking about. Ask your question to the people actually using the product and who will give you an unbiased opinion based off of your needs/goals for your car. It does not take long to pick out the Fanboi's.
