cobb & cpe software

[cpolly69]

which one is really the best value? - up until now i was 100% certain that i wanted the standback b/c i planned to get all my parts and have a shop to a professional tune for me and until the race tuner software came out only the standback could be used to make a true custom tune
but now i'm really thinking about the ap b/c the price of the sb and the full control flash is pretty freggin high! -
who has used both and knows if there are just as many adjustable parameters on the cobb software as the sb software?
does it use similar tables to adjust things or does the cobb software make things any easier or more complicated?
and will cobb sell the race tuner software to anyone?
and finally does the ap have anything that is equal to the pro fuel controller from cpe?

 

[Bravnik]

Hands down the AP is the BETTER value. You simply get way more features for a lower cost. The Race Tuner Software is free.

The ONLY thing the SB has on the AP is the ability to run a separate 5v signal. So no, the AP can't do Meth or anything along those lines. However, there are plenty of other options to run Meth and I personally don't believe that outweighs the features you get out of the box with the AP.

Now my opinion is biased as I have never ran the SB as I just don't like running things that lie to my ECU vice change parameters in the ECU.

 

[cpolly69]

so the ap doesn't create a feedback loop in the same mannor to trick the car's sensors into getting what you want? if not, how does it actually make the changes?

 

[Bravnik]

so the ap doesn't create a feedback loop in the same mannor to trick the car's sensors into getting what you want? if not, how does it actually make the changes?

The AP makes changes to the actual tables in the ECU. You physically change the parameters.

 

[cpolly69]

this isn't really answering my question - do you mean it's actually flashing chips on the ecu to just send different parameters?

 

[Bravnik]

this isn't really answering my question - do you mean it's actually flashing chips on the ecu to just send different parameters?

Yes the AP is flash. It flashes the ECU with the changes made.

 

[derspi]

this isn't really answering my question - do you mean it's actually flashing chips on the ecu to just send different parameters?

You're basically re-writing bits of code to the ECU as opposed to piggy back systems like the SB that work around the ECU by fooling it.

 

[Speedkid]

SB is better if you got the money I ask a few shops about the two thats why I got the SB.

 

[cpolly69]

is there anyone out there that is a tuner and has used both????

 

[Bravnik]

SB is better if you got the money I ask a few shops about the two thats why I got the SB.

If the shops told you a Standback is better than a Flash tool, then you went to the wrong shops. Sorry man. A flashing tool is ALWAYS better than a SB. The ONLY reason to ever run a SB on our car is if you want to utilize the 5v ability of the SB as the AP does not support that feature.

 

[Bravnik]

is there anyone out there that is a tuner and has used both????

The short answer. No. There is NOBODY on this forum that is a TUNER that has ran both the SB and the AP.

 

[cpolly69]

there's gotta be someone out there - i've seen these vids of shops where they try cobb maps and then try sb maps they have created - i'm really just looking for someone who can talk about the differences in the software and if they are dramatically different from each other - i've seen the sb software and i'm not that scared of the vt. manipulation tables - i also can't ignore the fact that the biggest hp ms3's i've seen are running the sb - ultimately for me tho mega hp isn't the most important - i want all the bolt ons and a good tune - i'm just trying to figure out which one will be easier for me to totally learn to use

 

[Bravnik]

The thing is that those that have the AP (myself) and those that have the SB (others) choose one and not the other. To me it's a no brainer. One is a flash and the other is not.

The AP has the most potential to tune as it is a flash and changes the ECU vice lying to it. The downside to any SB is that is lies to the ECU and the ECU can LEARN around it. The AP changes the tables thus the ECU can't learn around it.

The other thing is COST. The SB is simply way more expensive if you pay for all the same features as the AP and even if you do you still don't get all the features the AP has. If you want full throttle you have to buy the flash. If you want the cold cut fix you have to pay for the other flash as well as getting the flash does not include everything. Then if you want Plug and Play you have to buy the harness extra.

If, like you say, your goal is to put on bolt-on only and get a good tune then the AP wins hands down friend. Why would you even look at the SB at all? It is simply inferior in every way.

Now which is easier to learn? Probably the SB because it is a Hammer tuning wise compared to the AP which is a surgical scalpel. What you could do is find someone local to you that has the AP Race software and take a look at all the tables in it. The SB just has the couple. The AP has a ton that you can play with.

 

[cpolly69]

it may wind up that the best option for me is the ap - but i can't believe your theory of b/c the sb lies to the ecu the ecu will learn around it - i have talked to several people who have tuned their car w/ it and have never seen this - not to mention if you are going all out the biggest hp cars i've seen are using the sb not the ap - like the 420 hp car in maryland by p3 and cpe
http://www.**********forum.com/showthread.php?t=10108&highlight=400+ms3
i would love it if i had someone near me that had the cobb software so i could look at it - i know the sb pretty much has unlimited potential b/c no matter what the sensors are seeing the feedback loop can be created to tell them the needed voltage to get the results desired - i'm just curious if the tables you are actually changing on the chips can go just as far

 

[Circle9]

I will be getting a SB and not an AP when I have the money.

cpolly69 is correct, CP-E is the only ones out there that have made over 400 whp on a MS3, so far to my knowledge.

 

[Bravnik]

Here is a quote on the subject of piggybacks.

"Since the AP overwrites the values inside the ECU and the tables become whatever we change them to, there is no way for the ECU to go back to stock unless you flash it (re-write) back to stock.

The adaptiveness of the ECU is not confined to the Mazda ECU but OBDII ECUs in general. This adaptiveness is the bane of offset devices (piggybacks). Essentially with a piggyback you want to alter the value of a given load point inside the ECU. Let's say IDC (injector duty cycle) at 4,000rpm is 50% just for argument's sake.

Now, we have a bigger turbo or we increase boost pressure, we have to increase IDC at that load point by 20% so we tell the piggyback to add 20% to that load point. Now, the ECU sees that at that load point, the car is richer than it should be so it decides that at our load point it is going to cut IDC by 20% to 30% IDC. However, our piggyback is still adding 20% and you are back to an aggregate of 50% IDC, your ECU has just "learned" around your piggyback.

Since the flash that is loaded into your AP is a new ROM for the ECU, these values cannot be "learned" around as they are written to the ECU. The AP unit itself is a delivery system for the ROM as well as a data-logger, scan tool etc.

Hope that clears some things up.

Travis
COBB Tuning
Travis@COBB"

This was from http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4518703#post4518703

Also, you guys might want to do a bit more research on the Standback and the AP before making a decision. Making one based on a single Dyno pull done on a dyno that was pulled to a meet on the back of a trailer is stupid to say the least. Also you will NOT hit that kind of power unless you do to your engine what they did.......THE STANDBACK did NOT give them that power, a completely built motor with all the supporting equipment including the SB is what made that power. So saying "OMG They made 400WHP using a Standback" is a very immature and stupid statement. It helped yes, but was NOT the deciding factor.

 

[cpolly69]

i understood what was done to that car in order to make that kind of hp - i never even want that for my car- and it's totally obvious that it was a huge number of things that led to the car putting down those kind of numbers - on a dynojet btw - i'm sure if you did the same pulls on a mustang dyno w/verified car weight settings you wouldn't see the same pretty numbers - i never said that the sb led to those numbers alone either - so i think saying it's immature is a little harsh - what i'm saying is this - of all the folks putting big mods on the car and trying to make the big hp numbers as far as what's documented, the sb not the ap was used to make the tunes - do you think that cobb could take the entire identical engine setup and use their software and produce the same numbers? if so i haven't seen it yet -all in all i do realize that what has happened here is the guy with the money decided to take it to cpe - i'm just wondering if the cobb software is just as good then why hasn't someone show up there with the money?
also after a conversation with a friend w/ a sb i am starting believe when it comes to the ecu re-learning things - he has expressed a timing issue w/ this very issue we are talking about - but the big question he asked about the ap was - just how many times can you flash the chips in the ecu before they are toast? from my understanding it's about 250 times - now that sounds like a crazy big number and for a guy like me that just wants to get all the bolt ons and get a good tune it would never be an issue - but for the guy that wants keeps modding and changing stuff forever it could be an issue and the ecu is not cheap

 

[Speedkid]

That car was not on a trailer.

 

[Bravnik]

That car was not on a trailer.

Ok sure. They built an all weather dyno they keep outside (boom05)

Not to mention the tires you see on the Dyno. Sure looks like a trailer to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fk2...400-hp-mzr-turbo.html&feature=player_embedded

 

[Bravnik]

i understood what was done to that car in order to make that kind of hp - i never even want that for my car- and it's totally obvious that it was a huge number of things that led to the car putting down those kind of numbers - on a dynojet btw - i'm sure if you did the same pulls on a mustang dyno w/verified car weight settings you wouldn't see the same pretty numbers - i never said that the sb led to those numbers alone either - so i think saying it's immature is a little harsh - what i'm saying is this - of all the folks putting big mods on the car and trying to make the big hp numbers as far as what's documented, the sb not the ap was used to make the tunes - do you think that cobb could take the entire identical engine setup and use their software and produce the same numbers? if so i haven't seen it yet -all in all i do realize that what has happened here is the guy with the money decided to take it to cpe - i'm just wondering if the cobb software is just as good then why hasn't someone show up there with the money?
also after a conversation with a friend w/ a sb i am starting believe when it comes to the ecu re-learning things - he has expressed a timing issue w/ this very issue we are talking about - but the big question he asked about the ap was - just how many times can you flash the chips in the ecu before they are toast? from my understanding it's about 250 times - now that sounds like a crazy big number and for a guy like me that just wants to get all the bolt ons and get a good tune it would never be an issue - but for the guy that wants keeps modding and changing stuff forever it could be an issue and the ecu is not cheap

Actually the number is closer to 100 times before it is toast. I have had my AP for quite some time now. I helped build the CA 91Oct FMIC Stage 2 103 Beta map and now am running a custom remote tune. With all that I have maybe flashed my ECU 10 times.

The reason why nobody has done it with the AP yet is because those that really push the numbers tried with the SB and failed miserably. We will need a new group with the money, time and dedication to push it again. All those that tried with the SB blew their motors, de-installed or parted out and sold their cars (of which I'm glad as quite a few were total asshats).

My guess is that we will get some motivated new blood with the new MS3 coming out and also once more AP tuners learn how to tune our car using the AP. Surgeline has already produced some very nice numbers on a Mustang Dyno. I think they have a 335WHP MS3 on the Mustang and that was not on a built motor nor a bigger turbo. We all know that 335WHP will be more around 360-380WHP on a Dyno Jet. Which is not bad considering the SB Big Turbo builds maxed out around the same numbers.