Okay, the following will be long, but I promise you, it will be educational!! For those that dont know what this is, it is in response to NC_MP3s ignorant commentary from 3 separate threads that can all be referenced here:
http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000079 http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000098 http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000300
Hmmm..16 to 20 huh?? 4 years old is hardly grown up, looks like you still got some learning to do. Heres the difference between me and you, you have what you call, "grown up" on hondas and admittedly and obviously have limited knowledge of others, while I on the otherhand, have knowledge of many manufacturers, both N/A and turbo applications. Does that make me specialno!! Everyones gotta start somewhere and I just happened to take the diverse route, while you tried to focus your knowledge.although it looks like you need to focus a little harder.
I only got my knowledge through people far more knowledgeable than I and that have been doing it a lot longer than I. Did I get mad and throw a fit..no, I pulled out the pen and paper and started taking notes. You should too!!
Anyway, you actually make a valid point here, but not altogether true. The LS engine has characteristics that are better than the GSR for certain apps and certain goals, but not always. In this situation, you have made a good point by pointing out the compression on the LS is better for turbo apps, but do you also know why the LS responds better than the GSR to boost other than the lower compression?? Please, humor me and take a shot at that question.
For now, I will admit this, the LS gets more gains from boost than a GSR, but not better peak #s. In other words (ballpark #s), for the same setup, lets say a GSR gets 90 hp from boost to increase to 260 hp, while the LS gains 110 hp to take it to 252 hp. In the end, the LS gained more, but the GSR is still putting out more peak hp, which is what my original point was. I never said the LS didnt respond well to boost.
1) Its cheaper overall than a GSR when you add up the final cost.
2) LS engines are far more readily available than GSRs, although neither is really that hard to find nowadays.
3) They smartened up and realized that VTEC=power. Why do you think the STIs make more power than the USDM spec WRXs?? Its called variable valve timing!!
All you did by posting what you did was confirm what I was saying, so thank you!! Another FYI, when you swap motors, you no longer call it an LS just cuz the body is the same, it is essentially a GSR cuz that is what it is powered by. The proper term is "hybrid" man!!
Okay, now lets get to what the point of all this is, the actual facts and real dyno sheets.
I give you here 2 different LSs that would show differently than you suggested. Notice, the #s produced with your same drag III at 10 psi fully tuned on 93 octane w/no cats!! That is a big difference than your #s man!!
The second one is another turbo LS at 9 psi and only running 244 whp and 210 lbs/tq:
Cmon man, how much do you need?? Do you need more?? Okay, here is the link to the second one:
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/007615.html
Look at what the second guy says about his friends built LS and I quote for the rest of you that choose not to go to the link, "My buddy had a built LS with dropped exhaust 12-14 psi put down 266whp and 222 ft-lb! He went 12.60 in it and a guy on this board bought it imprauv!?"
Does that make me right and you wrongno!! But it does give me basis and reason to question your #s. Do I think youre #s are wrongno!! I just think you are not getting the full information behind those #s produced.
You have to remember, I live in CA where #s are exaggerated left and right. Its the land of the best, but also the land of rice!! There is a lot of BS floating around. We can only run CA regulated 91 octane pump gas while most of the rest of the country, gets 93 to 94 octane on a regular basis. Understand my point of view comes from this and those #s seem very inflated from this point of view.
When you get to that next level, you too will start to ask the same questions I do when I hear exaggerated or inflated #s. How do you think people and technology advance?? By just absorbing everything they here or finding out more details about how things work and what it is exactly that produce those #s.
What I will apologize for is that the board has to hear your mouth on a continual basis!! Enry and the rest of you, I commend your patience. This guy and his attitude wouldnt last a day over at I-club!!
[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: subywan-kenobi ]
http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000079 http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000098 http://www.protegemp3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000300
Sorry..too good to be true!!
Great, Im happy for you, really!! BTW, they have 320 at the crank and Im not the one comparing a FWD to a RWD. You cant compare drivetrain losses between different classes of drivetrains. Youre the type of guy who probably thinks that 250 @ the wheels on an AWD vs. FWD/RWD is the same. Do you know why it isnt cuz Id love to hear your thoughts?? Please tell all of us and if not, Id be more than happy to explain why.
Hmmm..16 to 20 huh?? 4 years old is hardly grown up, looks like you still got some learning to do. Heres the difference between me and you, you have what you call, "grown up" on hondas and admittedly and obviously have limited knowledge of others, while I on the otherhand, have knowledge of many manufacturers, both N/A and turbo applications. Does that make me specialno!! Everyones gotta start somewhere and I just happened to take the diverse route, while you tried to focus your knowledge.although it looks like you need to focus a little harder.
I only got my knowledge through people far more knowledgeable than I and that have been doing it a lot longer than I. Did I get mad and throw a fit..no, I pulled out the pen and paper and started taking notes. You should too!!
So why is it that all the drag integras utilize a GSR motor instead of LS motors if that was so true?? Look at all the top runners and you might start to realize a trend!! Once again, its like yelling at the def!!
Anyway, you actually make a valid point here, but not altogether true. The LS engine has characteristics that are better than the GSR for certain apps and certain goals, but not always. In this situation, you have made a good point by pointing out the compression on the LS is better for turbo apps, but do you also know why the LS responds better than the GSR to boost other than the lower compression?? Please, humor me and take a shot at that question.
For now, I will admit this, the LS gets more gains from boost than a GSR, but not better peak #s. In other words (ballpark #s), for the same setup, lets say a GSR gets 90 hp from boost to increase to 260 hp, while the LS gains 110 hp to take it to 252 hp. In the end, the LS gained more, but the GSR is still putting out more peak hp, which is what my original point was. I never said the LS didnt respond well to boost.
I can give you 3 good reasons why people do it:
1) Its cheaper overall than a GSR when you add up the final cost.
2) LS engines are far more readily available than GSRs, although neither is really that hard to find nowadays.
3) They smartened up and realized that VTEC=power. Why do you think the STIs make more power than the USDM spec WRXs?? Its called variable valve timing!!
For once, we actually agree on something!!
Im sorry man, but what the hell does a plymouth laser rs-t and what it puts out have anything to do with a turbo LS or GSR?? Lets compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Dont compare cross manufacturer motors that arent even close to the same. For christ sakes, one isnt even turbod from the factory and the other is. Why do you think those guys ditched the LS motor for the GSR?? .
All you did by posting what you did was confirm what I was saying, so thank you!! Another FYI, when you swap motors, you no longer call it an LS just cuz the body is the same, it is essentially a GSR cuz that is what it is powered by. The proper term is "hybrid" man!!
Okay, now lets get to what the point of all this is, the actual facts and real dyno sheets.
Well, which is it..250 or 270?? 6 psi or 7 psi?? In the end, none of your results give concrete figures to judge off of. All you have is a, sketchy at best, article from overboost with no dyno graph available to say at what octane, what exact boost, what kind of timing, what other additional mods, whether its SAE corrected or raw #s, what kind of dyno, or environmental conditions (not so important)??
I give you here 2 different LSs that would show differently than you suggested. Notice, the #s produced with your same drag III at 10 psi fully tuned on 93 octane w/no cats!! That is a big difference than your #s man!!
The second one is another turbo LS at 9 psi and only running 244 whp and 210 lbs/tq:
Cmon man, how much do you need?? Do you need more?? Okay, here is the link to the second one:
http://forums.clubsi.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/007615.html
Look at what the second guy says about his friends built LS and I quote for the rest of you that choose not to go to the link, "My buddy had a built LS with dropped exhaust 12-14 psi put down 266whp and 222 ft-lb! He went 12.60 in it and a guy on this board bought it imprauv!?"
Does that make me right and you wrongno!! But it does give me basis and reason to question your #s. Do I think youre #s are wrongno!! I just think you are not getting the full information behind those #s produced.
You have to remember, I live in CA where #s are exaggerated left and right. Its the land of the best, but also the land of rice!! There is a lot of BS floating around. We can only run CA regulated 91 octane pump gas while most of the rest of the country, gets 93 to 94 octane on a regular basis. Understand my point of view comes from this and those #s seem very inflated from this point of view.
When you get to that next level, you too will start to ask the same questions I do when I hear exaggerated or inflated #s. How do you think people and technology advance?? By just absorbing everything they here or finding out more details about how things work and what it is exactly that produce those #s.
What I will apologize for is that the board has to hear your mouth on a continual basis!! Enry and the rest of you, I commend your patience. This guy and his attitude wouldnt last a day over at I-club!!
Couldnt have said it any better than that my friend!! You seem to have a good grasp on reality and real world #s. Dont lose that as its a valuable and too rare of a quality in the import world. Its no wonder Domestic guys laugh at imports and continually make fun of our 4 bangers when people start spreading unreal stories and hearsay #s.
Thank God, does this mean you will be moving on now??
[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: subywan-kenobi ]
