Can it happen to us?

[sephiroth]

The lady who testified before congress said that she had the gear selector in beyond the N position, into the R position, but was still under power.

I'm not understanding this sentence. Having the gear selector in Reverse won't disengage the trans axle from the flywheel(and probably wouldn't register as a selection while in motion anyway), so it would still accelerate.

Also, it isn't just a few seconds in some cases. I read somewhere that someone went for 6 miles.

if you go through every single instance I'm sure there are where it went on for longer, yes. The point is it's a completely unrecognized reaction from the car and the person is too pumped with adrenaline or fear to be able to act logically

 

[Ferdball]

I'm not understanding this sentence. Having the gear selector in Reverse won't disengage the trans axle from the flywheel(and probably wouldn't register as a selection while in motion anyway), so it would still accelerate.

What don't you understand? She went to N and it didn't work.

if you go through every single instance I'm sure there are where it went on for longer, yes. The point is it's a completely unrecognized reaction from the car and the person is too pumped with adrenaline or fear to be able to act logically

What would you have done to stop the car? Brakes, ignition, gear selection didn't work.

 

[midMOdan]

i've been curious about this thru the nonstop coverage

My Five has all three pedals, so I don't expect to have a problem if it ever becomes possessed like these toyotas.

But.... every time I hear "them" reminding people that when your engine stops turning you lose your power-assisted steering.

Don't I remember reading that 5s have "electric" power steering?

Any one want to play guinea pig & see what happens to the assist when you turn off the engine while rolling?

Does the electric motor (i guess that's what's going on in there) attached to the P.S. pump still get juice, so you'll still get pumped-up steering? I wonder if there's probably a relay somewhere that cuts the power to the pump motor when the key is not in the 'run' position to keep from draining the battery?

 

[sephiroth]

What don't you understand? She went to N and it didn't work.

*in beyond the N posistion in the R posistion* is what I'm refering to. Your post didn't say she selected neutral it said she passed N and went right for reverse. If she selected Reverse there's a saftey feature in the ECU's programming that does not allow selection of the reverse gear when the car is in motion, so it would not have had an effect, with cable acutaed system it results in power loss, in electronic gear selection it just does nothing.

What would you have done to stop the car? Brakes, ignition, gear selection didn't work.

something's not adding up is what I'm saying. Selection of neutral is possible, either she's lying or there was some other defect or serisous programming error that didn't allow selection of neutral. besides that it's impossible to predict what I would do since I'm not in that situation, I don't think *anyone* could answer that question. However in the event of gear selection brake and ignition failure, the only logcical course of action is to crash into a field or or grassy area.

 

[NCZ13]

Wow, are people really buying that an electronic throttle issue is affecting a mechanical transmission issue?

neutral isnt an electronic button. Your physically actuating a gear.

Car and Driver did a test with an 07 camry, braking the car while on the throttle at 60mph, it only took 14 more feet from 60-0. They said even from a 120-0 test the brakes still had a noticeable affect, obviously it would take longer to brake from that speed, but still that gives you plenty of time to put the car in neutral...

 

[sephiroth]

neutral isnt an electronic button. Your physically actuating a gear.

modern Gear selections are done electronically, an actual cable to select gears hasn't been around for a few years. Don't even get me started on career politicians.. our government was never designed to operate this way and its why people can lie to their faces so easily.

Car and Driver did a test with an 07 camry, braking the car while on the throttle at 60mph, it only took 14 more feet from 60-0. They said even from a 120-0 test the brakes still had a noticeable affect, obviously it would take longer to brake from that speed, but still that gives you plenty of time to put the car in neutral...

exactly.. there's 0 reason you shouldn't be able to stop the car with the brakes. Either these people were not applying the full force necessary or they just didn't react fast enough, and are going along the bandwagon to collect $$$

 

[Ferdball]

*in beyond the N posistion in the R posistion* is what I'm refering to. Your post didn't say she selected neutral it said she passed N and went right for reverse...

I didn't think I needed to specify that she probably went into N in order to go through N.

 

[sephiroth]

I didn't think I needed to specify that she probably went into N in order to go through N.

so, again.. is going *through* N stopping @ N for a few seconds to allow the transmission to disengage from the flywheel, and when that dosent happen try reverse or just going straight for reverse and part of that operation going *through* neutral.


you *do* need to explain because it makes a *big* difference(that's rhetorical btw). That's like saying I applied the brakes, but how hard did I apply them and for how long...

 

[Ferdball]

Rhonda Smith is a retired social worker from Tennessee who talked moments ago about the accelerating Lexus 350 that nearly took her life in October 2006. The new automobile had just over 2,000 miles on it.

She just told the House Energy and Commerce Committee that on October 12, she was driving in Tennessee on Hwy 66 entering I-40.

"I was entering the interstate and accelerated and merged into second lane, NOT going into passing gear. It is at this time I lost all control of the acceleration of the vehicle. The car goes into passing gear and the cruise light comes on. At this time, I am thinking that maybe the cruise is what has caused the car to accelerate, as my foot is NOT on the gas pedal. I take off the cruise control. The car continues to accelerate. The car is now up to 80 mph. The brakes do not slow the car at all. Now I am at 85-90 mph. (*Editor corrected script here)

"I push the car into NEUTAL and it makes a revving noise. I push the emergency brake on… nothing helps. I continue hitting and slamming the brakes. Now I am at 85 mph wondering if I can maneuver in and out of the upcoming cars and trucks, or if I am going to need to put the car into the guardrail and into the trees.

"The last time I looked at the speedometer it read 100 mph. At this time, I had the emergency brake onwhile frantically shifting between ALL the gears (besides park) but mainly had it in REVERSE and with the emergency brake on. I finally figured the car was going to go to its maximum speed and was praying to God to please help me. After about 3 miles had passed, I thought it was my time to die, and I called my husband (on bluetooth). I knew he couldn’t help me in this particular situation, but I just needed to hear his voice. What an awful 911 call he received at work.

"At almost exactly 6 miles God intervened. I had not tried anything different that I had frantically tried before to slow the vehicle, yet the car began to slow down ever so slowly. It slowed enough for me to pull to the left median, with the motor still revving up and down. At 35 mph it would not shut off.

"Finally, at 33 mph I was able to turn the engine off. However, the radio remained on and I was not about to touch ANY button on that car, or ever again.

"After my husband arrived there was nothing unusual with the floormats, the dash lights and radio were still on. The wrecker driver asked my husband to put my car in neutral so he could use the winch. My husband was able to shift into neutral, but when he did that, the car tried to start itself. The wrecker driver attested to this. After ten days, Toyota did not contact us. We received an analysis stating "if properly maintained the brakes will always override the accelerator." Well that’s a lie!

http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/rhonda-smith-shame-on-you-toyota.aspx

 

[sephiroth]

Okay so she didn't keep it in neutral.. The trans did disengage from the sound of it and she just didn't keep it in N for long enough or apply the brakes hard enough( hitting and slamming isn't constant pressure it's on and off motion from the sound of it which *won't* stop the car) to stop the vehicle, she also states that she mainly had the trans in gear (reverse in this car) so it makes sense that it would still accelerate. It looks like what I was saying was correct. She didn't have it in neutral long enough to acutaly stop the car before trying another gear. Not mentioning that excitment of the event makes every action seem longer and testifying before congress adds some emotion/stress into the equation. Her whole complaint is complelty void of any factual information that the procedures dot work because she didn't use them properly.

 

[Ferdball]

There seem to be two camps on this issue. One the conclude that these people are idiots and don't know how to stop a runaway car. The only other option is to thouroughly investgate furthur without bias.

 

[sephiroth]

There seem to be two camps on this issue. One the conclude that these people are idiots and don't know how to stop a runaway car. The only other option is to thouroughly investgate furthur without bias.

There doesn't need to be any further investigation. There have been many tests already done that confirm that these procedures *work*. Either she wasn't following them correctly and now is in a state where she's in it for the $$$ or there was some other issue with her car aside from the accelerator pedal malfunction.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—thats a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems

if a 540HP mustang, a 268HP V6 Camry and a G37 with a 326HP V6 can all stop within 20feet of their ratted stopping distance even @ full throttle then I'm *sure* her car could have. They even did 1 test at 120mph and the car slowed just fine to 10MPH before the brakes started to overheat.


The problem here is we have a single witness to the event and the potential lawsuit that could set her up for life with no evidence to argue against her word alone.

 

[Ferdball]

Understood. Thanks for your opinion. I disagree.

 

[KBrian]

Human reaction to stresses are not predictable. Many of us can panic during unexpected car events (such as unintended accel). While I hate anecdotal evidence to back up a theory, I have heard enough examples and experienced my own disconnect between intended action and unexpected events.

On two occasions (at least), I have found my leg/foot doing something my brain was unaware of or was opposite what my brain was expecting.

Once, My left foot was jammed fully on the brake pedal when I wanted to pull away from a stop. It took me several seconds to find out why the car would not go.

Another time, while backing up, I came close to hitting another car. Instead of hitting the brakes, I mashed the gas pedal, and only pressed harder to try to slow the car. My passenger screaming at me woke my out of the panic and I hit the brakes.

Things happen very quickly in panic situations. After, there is ample opportunity to lament actions and lay blame elsewhere.

Having a faulty throttle initiate a panic situation can be enough to set off a series of events that really can be beyong the control of the average driver.

Blame it on nudge-nudge, wink-wink driver training combined with panic situations that are few and far between.

Until attitudes change about car control/driving skills, the (not so) deep pockets of the car companies will be picked to pay for our driving sins.

Wow, I really sound like an apologist for the industry. I'm not. They must take full responsibility for the functioning of the systems designed to attract customers into the showroom. That responsibility includes shouldering blame for the consequences of system failure.

IMHO.

 

[skyhawk]

I guess it is a tough problem to solve. It is very difficult for a computer to know if the acceleration is intended or not. Computer does not know if there is a foot on the pedal or not. Maybe they can put a swith on top of the pedal to 'validate' that a foot is indeed stepping on the accelerator pedal before interpretting the signals from the hall effect transistors.

I believe this incident will result in furthere improvements in future cars.

 

[skyhawk]

"
Japan's car firms study brake override system
.........
Among Japan's eight carmakers, Mazda Motor said it would add the system to all future models "as soon as possible" starting this year.

"We decided to do this because it's the right thing to do," Mazda spokesman Garett Carr said on Tuesday. He added that Mazda currently has the feature on some diesel cars sold in Europe.
"

http://www.timescolonist.com/Japan+firms+study+brake+override+system/2676503/story.html

 

[NCZ13]

say goodbye to heel toe downshifting...

 

[sephiroth]

say goodbye to heel toe downshifting...

My car has this feature and it works fine. In the Bosch ME 7.2's case you have to have the following conditions:
1) accelerator pedal requesting 75% or more throttle
2) brake pedal detection via a 2 step rapid sequence. (ie, if you have it floored and hit the brake pedal twice quickly engine power is reduced to via ESP/fuel cut procedure)

it takes care of the possible issue should you be stupid enough to not throw it in neutral and allows heal toe shifting. It's not like you're going to be doing any more than half throttle for downshifts anyway. I would think a similar procedure would be used, to avoid accidental CEL trips.

 

[Ferdball]

Wait. Why would you ever heel/toe a car with an automatic transmission?

 

[KBrian]

Is unintended accelaration exclusivly limited to cars with auto transmissions?