Brakes, Springs...recommendations? Lessons learned?

thaxman

Mazda5 the Anti-Van
Since our forum isn't so active (nothing seems to break excessively on these & modding is rather mundane) I lost track of old posts that mentioned good brake pads & rotors. Any suggestions out there? I think I will try to keep the current rotors, as I don't think they are warped, but I want pads that are #1 affordable, #2 won't leave metallic garbage all over the wheels, #3 won't leave ghosted residue on the rotors like the cheap OE ones do.

Also, my rear springs are junk. With the 215/50R17s and wider aftermarket wheels with a little less positive offset, everytime the car crosses a speed hump, or bump or pothole or even sometimes a curb cut, the back end bottoms out - usually 1 side or the other. The rear load is as follows: 2YO behind driver - 30lbs; 6YO behind her - 45 lbs; 11YO and 8YO in passenger side (they switch front to back) If the 8YO (<50lbs) is in the right rear, the LR bottoms out, but if the 11YO (<70lbs) is in the back, the RR bottoms out under him. Really annoying that all 4 kids weigh <200 lbs, but I am still bottoming out like I'm carrying Bubba and his 3 WWE pro wrestler friends back there. Help.
 
Hawk HPS is a good low dusting low noise street pad with much better than stock performance. Rotors = good quality blanks; Brembo or Centric/Powerslot/Stoptech (all 3 under Centric umbrella) are great quality rotors. Stay away from drilled.

Your springs are fine if you return to the correct ride height after a compression event. Your shocks are bad. Check your spring mounting hardware too. Replace with an aftermarket shock that has a LOT more damping than the OE solution. Bilstein and Koni make shocks specific to the 5 (and Mazdaspeed 3) that offer more damping than the generic all-purpose 3/5 shock. Other manufacturers might too.
 
I'm going with Bilstein when mine go out and yes buddha is correct, it's not your springs, it's your shocks.
 
I'm going with Bilstein when mine go out and yes buddha is correct, it's not your springs, it's your shocks.

Brand new KYBs. Bottomed on the 1st speed hump of the test drive.

Also, ride height has been uneven, with the LR sometimes being even with the RR, but sometimes 1/2"-3/4" lower depending on the circumstances the vehicle came to a rest.
 
Brand new KYBs. Bottomed on the 1st speed hump of the test drive.

Also, ride height has been uneven, with the LR sometimes being even with the RR, but sometimes 1/2"-3/4" lower depending on the circumstances the vehicle came to a rest.

Sounds like they were installed wrong then if your ride height is screwed up and changing when coming to a rest. The spring isn't captive in its perches or something.
 
I've never heard of this before unless the springs were either heated or cut to lower the vehicle but I guess it could be possible. Get a set of the new 2012+ MZ5 rear springs. Maybe the so called "improved stronger" suspension helps.
 
Since our forum isn't so active (nothing seems to break excessively on these & modding is rather mundane) I lost track of old posts that mentioned good brake pads & rotors. Any suggestions out there? I think I will try to keep the current rotors, as I don't think they are warped, but I want pads that are #1 affordable, #2 won't leave metallic garbage all over the wheels, #3 won't leave ghosted residue on the rotors like the cheap OE ones do.
Every manufacturer offers tiers from crap to acceptable to great. If you pay cheap, you will get an inferior product. Use TireRack’s pad search to get a graphical view of effectiveness vs dust and cost. The Brembo name is great but their cheap budget line blanks are not worth it. IMHO, centric provides the best bang for the buck for ALL your braking needs.
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123810631-Pads-(maybe-rotors-too)-recommendations

A few lessons learned from my MS3 front brake job, which sadly I still have not had time to finish and abandon the car in a sad state :(
-Get a new caliper hardware kit! It comes with the caliper to bracket retrainer spring/clip (to level out the caliper body and bracket for better movement of the slider pins) and replacement rubber boots(!) for the slider pins. It also comes with replacement caps for the rubber boots and caps for the bleeder valves –these are less important. It is the replacement rubber boots is most important as they seem to get worn/deform easily! Also, no matter how much grease you reapply, the inner channels get harden and sticky from the old grease so unless you want to take the time to clean the interior channels for the slider pin, it would be easier to just replace them. They pull right out and inset the new ones with a little bit of brake fluid on the outside.
-Clean the slider pins down really good. I use aluminum polish and got it to shine.
-Use high quality grease. I recommend Super Lube (amazon).


I'd also recommend replacing your brake fluid and depending on how many miles you have and how long you plan on keeping the car, I would also recommend rebuilding your calipers.


Also, my rear springs are junk. With the 215/50R17s and wider aftermarket wheels with a little less positive offset, everytime the car crosses a speed hump, or bump or pothole or even sometimes a curb cut, the back end bottoms out - usually 1 side or the other. The rear load is as follows: 2YO behind driver - 30lbs; 6YO behind her - 45 lbs; 11YO and 8YO in passenger side (they switch front to back) If the 8YO (<50lbs) is in the right rear, the LR bottoms out, but if the 11YO (<70lbs) is in the back, the RR bottoms out under him. Really annoying that all 4 kids weigh <200 lbs, but I am still bottoming out like I'm carrying Bubba and his 3 WWE pro wrestler friends back there. Help.
Your bump stops (jounce bumpers) are probably shot! At rest, most cars sit on bump stops that act as an auxiliary spring. Given your mileage and what you are describing, sure sounds like worn shocks (b/c we know stock is garbage), which isn’t capable of damping the bumps/humps and worn bump stops to give you a progressive feel before the suspension crashes.

If the bump stops are worn, you lose the added 'feel' of the bump stop’s progressive damping. Going over a bump/hump, you'll more likely feel the initial bump and a sudden and hard crash (once you've exceeded the shocks damping capabilities, which are probably shot and you don't get the cushy soft sensation of it getting to that point.

Agree with the others spings are not the issue. Maybe your spring perch is broken/loose? We did have someone who found their broken.


Go to youtube and search ‘FCM suspension truth’ videos. GREAT short videos that are very educational. Start with this one and watch your way through -enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIYdjerfFPg&feature=relmfu



@ Davicho – are you planning Bilstein OE twintube replacements or their montube (HD/Sport) performance shocks?
If you are sticking with stock Mz5 springs and planning on Bilstein montube, I recommend watching the video below regarding this ‘jacking’ phenomenon. I had this experience in my Miata with Bilstein Sport w/ stock springs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahkmJ6earo8

(BTW, the FCM videos are actually pretty old but the host have reuploaded them a few times due to audio out of sync and revisions and such)
 
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Yes I am actually going with the Yellow B6 HD shocks. The B8 SP are specifically for lowered suspension which I am not going to do for the sole reason that I actually do use my 5 how it was intended with anywhere from 4-6 passengers.
 
Your bump stops (jounce bumpers) are probably shot! At rest, most cars sit on bump stops that act as an auxiliary spring. Given your mileage and what you are describing, sure sounds like worn shocks (b/c we know stock is garbage), which isn’t capable of damping the bumps/humps and worn bump stops to give you a progressive feel before the suspension crashes.

Actually, bump stops are there to make sure that the suspension hard points don't make contact during compression that would exceed the designed travel of the suspension system. Most cars do NOT sit on their bump stops at rest- that would defeat the purpose of having springs or dampers- the bump stop would be doing all the compression (not much) under bump. That's why they're called bump STOPS- because they're there to stop motion when the bump is too big; they're not there as a primary spring. On some cars they are factored into creating a progressively harder spring rate at the extremes of compression, but that's not as common as a normal bump stop that just keeps the hard points from crashing into each other.

Yes I am actually going with the Yellow B6 HD shocks. The B8 SP are specifically for lowered suspension which I am not going to do for the sole reason that I actually do use my 5 how it was intended with anywhere from 4-6 passengers.

You can lower and still maintain good functionality. I'm over an inch and a half lower in the back, and I still carry 5 passengers with a full load of cargo and a fully loaded roof box with a bike next to it. No problem. You just have to make sure you have enough spring rate and damping to help with the shortened bump travel.
 
Actually, bump stops are there to make sure that the suspension hard points don't make contact during compression that would exceed the designed travel of the suspension system. Most cars do NOT sit on their bump stops at rest- that would defeat the purpose of having springs or dampers- the bump stop would be doing all the compression (not much) under bump. That's why they're called bump STOPS- because they're there to stop motion when the bump is too big; they're not there as a primary spring. On some cars they are factored into creating a progressively harder spring rate at the extremes of compression, but that's not as common as a normal bump stop that just keeps the hard points from crashing into each other.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. I started with 'At rest’ then my train of thought went to typing about motion. From all the pics of cars I've seen with worn or generally on the topic of bump stops, I don't think I've seen a car sits on them at rest. That really wouldn't make any sense. Often very close to contact, but not actually on them. And as you pointed out, this would completely defeat the purpose of springs/shocks :p

At rest, most cars sit on bump stops that act as an auxiliary spring
Should read 'While moving,...".
I think if you look at the OE bump stop, you can get an idea if it was designed to be a 'stop' or auxiliary spring + stop. You prob know more than I so I'd like you opinion on the following. All bump stops have individual coil rings or sections, most are progressive (upside down trapezoid shaped) while others are linear (cylinder shaped, often comes with aftermarket shocks). Some OE bump stops are short, some are longer. Mazda, in general, uses pretty long ones, which I assume they intend on using it as more than just bump stops b/c they engage very early. Shorter bump stops allow the shocks to do the majority of the dampening. This topic and suspension tuning really interests me so I'd like to understand more, where I can. Thanks.

Ah, I knew this discussion gave me a sense of dj vu…
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...our-Bump-Stop-With-Lowering-Spring&highlight=


Yes I am actually going with the Yellow B6 HD shocks. The B8 SP are specifically for lowered suspension which I am not going to do for the sole reason that I actually do use my 5 how it was intended with anywhere from 4-6 passengers.
But the challenge is that the Bilsteins were designed with Mazdaspeed3, I believe, in mind. Spring rates are higher than ours so using HDs with stock Mz5 springs may not yield the best results you are after. Aside from ground clearance, stiffer springs prob work better with the monotubes in terms of ride comfort. If you are willing to add ~$40 ontop per shock, you can send the HDs to Bilstein US and have them revalved to match the stock Mz5 spring rate.

+1 on Phunky’s comment. With the right hardware, there’s no reason it can’t ride and handle like, for example, a BMW (minus the RWD part) while carrying passengers and load and still feel good.
 
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Since our forum isn't so active (nothing seems to break excessively on these & modding is rather mundane) I lost track of old posts that mentioned good brake pads & rotors. Any suggestions out there? I think I will try to keep the current rotors, as I don't think they are warped, but I want pads that are #1 affordable, #2 won't leave metallic garbage all over the wheels, #3 won't leave ghosted residue on the rotors like the cheap OE ones do.

Also, my rear springs are junk. With the 215/50R17s and wider aftermarket wheels with a little less positive offset, everytime the car crosses a speed hump, or bump or pothole or even sometimes a curb cut, the back end bottoms out - usually 1 side or the other. The rear load is as follows: 2YO behind driver - 30lbs; 6YO behind her - 45 lbs; 11YO and 8YO in passenger side (they switch front to back) If the 8YO (<50lbs) is in the right rear, the LR bottoms out, but if the 11YO (<70lbs) is in the back, the RR bottoms out under him. Really annoying that all 4 kids weigh <200 lbs, but I am still bottoming out like I'm carrying Bubba and his 3 WWE pro wrestler friends back there. Help.

We do offer our Stage 1 and Stage 2 Brake kits for your vehicle.

They will be low dust and low noise. The rotors are built to oem size, the stage 1 is non coated, so rust will eventually show after a car wash on the unswept areas. The stage 2 has a black e-coating to help prevent that, but if you do live where salt is used during the winter, they could rust later on down the road.

Stage 1 Kit

Stage 2 Kit

You can use coupon code "gozoomzoom" for a 5% discount.
 
I think if you look at the OE bump stop, you can get an idea if it was designed to be a 'stop' or auxiliary spring + stop. You prob know more than I so I'd like you opinion on the following. All bump stops have individual coil rings or sections, most are progressive (upside down trapezoid shaped) while others are linear (cylinder shaped, often comes with aftermarket shocks). Some OE bump stops are short, some are longer. Mazda, in general, uses pretty long ones, which I assume they intend on using it as more than just bump stops b/c they engage very early. Shorter bump stops allow the shocks to do the majority of the dampening. This topic and suspension tuning really interests me so I'd like to understand more, where I can. Thanks.

Ah, I knew this discussion gave me a sense of dj vu
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/show...our-Bump-Stop-With-Lowering-Spring&highlight=

Don't know if I actually know more than anyone else, but I'd like to think I have a good understanding of how cars work ;)

So while your car shouldn't need to depend on the bump stops for every day driving, every single car manufacturer HAS to model the behavior of the entire suspension system in all environments/situations possible that the suspension would experience- to do otherwise would leave the door open for unexpected failures, lawsuits etc. As an engineer, I try to account for EVERYTHING. The shape and composition of the bump stop still matters quite a bit, and depending on how the suspension guys wanted to set up their car, they could add the stop in at any point in the suspension's travel to play with the overall effective spring/damping rate that the wheel will see. I imagine that it's a lot more economical to use a cone/trapezoid shaped piece of rubber and have it ramp up the overall spring rate against the wheel as compression pushes the wheel up rather than have a shock with complex valving that would do the same thing- a chunk of rubber is a hell of a lot cheaper to mold into different shapes to give a progressive rate than a shock. I personally would prefer to do everything in the shocks and not have to worry about the bump stops, but that doesn't make large/long bump stops a bad thing at all.

I didn't touch the bump stops on my 5 when I lowered it, but on cars that I have messed with them, I replaced them completely with stiffer/shorter ones that were just meant to stop motion and not provide a progressive buildup of force into the suspension system. You go shorter to increase the amount of bump-stop free suspension travel, but too short and you're going to run into hard interference. I went too short on my Nissan Hardbody, and as a result, when I went over REALLY hard bumps/dips (like coming down from being airborne), the tops of the tires would contact the inner upper surface of the fenders. It was rare though, and I didn't worry about it too much since only the tread hit, and nothing sharp was cutting up the tires. Up until I got to the hard contact though, the travel was nice and smooth with a lot more control than hitting the factory bump stops much earlier in the suspension stroke.

So I didn't worry about the 5's bump stops since I was more than tripling (I think) the stock spring rate and providing damping to match, while definitely NOT taking out anywhere near a third of the travel. I think the way the BC coilovers are set up though, the shocks will hit their internal bump stops before engaging the factory ones anyway- but I've never checked, and I haven't noticed any abrupt transitions from locking up the suspension when I'm really flogging the car through the twisties. In any case, I should be hitting my factory bump stops less than with the OE setup.

Now if you really like to dump your car and lay it low while getting springs that aren't that much stiffer than stock, you'll definitely want to get harder and shorter bump stops to get some of your suspension travel back and keep the hard points of the car from hitting and damaging themselves. Ideally you'd measure the motion ratio of your suspension between the bump stop location(s) and the wheel, and figure out the shortest height you could get away with (while adding some back in for bump stop squish) and not have the tire stuff itself into any steel under the car during full compression.

So enough blabbing, here are some old photos illustrating what I had done on my old truck:

Rear stops:
bump_stops_med_06.jpg

bump_stops_med_07.jpg

bump_stops_med_14.jpg

bump_stops_med_13.jpg


Front stops:
bump_stops_med_19.jpg

bump_stops_med_20.jpg


So you can see how close the factory stops were in the back after lowering the truck 2" in the rear. All the shorter stop is doing is preventing hard axle to frame contact, but it took away the progressive rubber stop that helped to increase spring rate during compression. I got a lot of travel back, and on hard turns the axle would float instead of slamming against the rubber stop and locking up the axle. On the front, you can see where the factory stop wore off a clean spot on the lower control arm- even before lowering, there was only about a half inch of space between the factory stop and the LCA. The cone shape was clearly meant to act as a progressive spring. The low profile stop I bought was NOT for the location I put it in (too thin) and so was totally useless- the tire became the bump stop against the fender. Oops. The correct aftermarket front stop was quite a bit taller than mine, but still a cone shaped progressive stop, just shorter than factory and made out of stiffer polyurethane. Oh well, that truck's long gone, and I'm not lowering any more vehicles while still keeping factory spring rates, so I really don't need to worry about my bump stops that much.

Hope that's not too wordy.

:)
 
Not too wordy and I do appreciate your input. Our fundamental understanding are the same but I believe there is more to bump stops then traditional thought. After reading FCM’s studies and research/consultation they’ve done with other suspension manufacturers, it seems all suspension makers consider it as an aid or auxiliary damper -sorta speak. Not saying everyone should go out there and replace theirs but I do believe stockers are not build to last, are match to OE springs/shocks, and get worn prematurely b/c suspension rides on them too much, especially if your shocks are toast. The last part was what I was trying to convey to the OP regarding his bottoming out with small kids but the ‘At rest’ comment sure does confuse the hell out of things. Looking back at some older Miata topics, the R packaged NA Miata (stiffer, sportier, best handler) do rest on bump stops while ‘at rest’ (right context this time) but not all trims do.

Some interesting products by FCM and their review/input on some of the major vendors on the market.
http://fatcatmotorsports.com/FCM_app_guide.htm

Mz5 is not the right car but if/when I get to build my toy monster Miata (WAF approved :)), I will definitely use their consultation process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DldLQOp9wZQ


I think the way the BC coilovers are set up though, the shocks will hit their internal bump stops before engaging the factory ones anyway- but I've never checked, and I haven't noticed any abrupt transitions from locking up the suspension when I'm really flogging the car through the twisties.
I don’t know much about BC Coilovers but the thing I love about Bilstein’s monotubes (for the MS3 and only the fronts pair!) is that they are inverted and have built-in internal bump stops. You can open the body to replace the stops but there’s no need as Bilstein advise it is unnecessary to reuse factory bump stops on top –it would detriment travel. Also, being inverted, the shaft (body) is much thicker and would not fit stocker stops anyway. The built-in stops are the matched to the shock and will prevent over compression and allow the springs and shock to do the work; the rears are standard and need external stops.
 
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I'm pretty sure I'm not hitting the bump stops, but I KNOW that the fenderwells are making contact w/the tires. I have cuts all over the sidewalls and the inner fender where the panels stamp together on both rear wells are pulled down a bit from the contact. IDK how to roll fenders, but if I keep these wheels, I realize its a must. I don't want to replace the wheels due to cost, but I will need to sometime in the future, since the chrome plating is flaking in the bead causing leaks. Besides, they are a bit too "bling" for my tastes, although they do look really good with the body style. Looking to use Nissan SE-R wheels with the horseshoe-5-spoke design if I can get them to work. Same offset as OE, but 17x7, so I wonder how much room there is against the springs and struts back there for an extra 1" of depth. But this is all in the future, not now. This year and next I have to survive, not spend.

It just bothers me that there is so much damping back there when 4 kids weighing 200 lbs are in the back I really don't expect the wheels to travel something like 4" when the suspension is compressing like that.
 
phunky.buddha, it sounds like I want a higher spring rate ideally then? But who? Because of where we take this, lowering is not an ideal answer. I need the clearance periodically.
 
I don’t know much about BC Coilovers but the thing I love about Bilstein’s monotubes (for the MS3 and only the fronts pair!) is that they are inverted and have built-in internal bump stops. You can open the body to replace the stops but there’s no need as Bilstein advise it is unnecessary to reuse factory bump stops on top –it would detriment travel. Also, being inverted, the shaft (body) is much thicker and would not fit stocker stops anyway. The built-in stops are the matched to the shock and will prevent over compression and allow the springs and shock to do the work; the rears are standard and need external stops.

Just to be clear- the Bilstein will definitely be higher quality in terms of shock performance than something like a universal cartridge based BC coilover suspension. Should be anyway. If Bilstein's literature is showing that the internal bump stops are all you need, then by all means toss the OE (or store them) bump stops.

I'm pretty sure I'm not hitting the bump stops, but I KNOW that the fenderwells are making contact w/the tires. I have cuts all over the sidewalls and the inner fender where the panels stamp together on both rear wells are pulled down a bit from the contact. IDK how to roll fenders, but if I keep these wheels, I realize its a must. I don't want to replace the wheels due to cost, but I will need to sometime in the future, since the chrome plating is flaking in the bead causing leaks. Besides, they are a bit too "bling" for my tastes, although they do look really good with the body style. Looking to use Nissan SE-R wheels with the horseshoe-5-spoke design if I can get them to work. Same offset as OE, but 17x7, so I wonder how much room there is against the springs and struts back there for an extra 1" of depth. But this is all in the future, not now. This year and next I have to survive, not spend.

It just bothers me that there is so much damping back there when 4 kids weighing 200 lbs are in the back I really don't expect the wheels to travel something like 4" when the suspension is compressing like that.

Go talk to a body shop about rolling your fenders- there's a whopping 3/4" of space in there taken up by that infernal fender lip. It sounds like your fenders ARE your bump stops in the back. Not good. And your last sentence- there's is NOT enough damping if you're bottoming out. More damping = more control over motion, and there is most definitely 4 inches of travel in the back.

phunky.buddha, it sounds like I want a higher spring rate ideally then? But who? Because of where we take this, lowering is not an ideal answer. I need the clearance periodically.

You don't necessarily need a higher spring rate unless you want to reduce the amount of travel in the back. You mostly need better shocks to absorb the bump energy better so your car moves less. You want to retain as much suspension travel as possible for better ride quality and control. If the stronger spring helps your car move less, you can measure the spring rate and motion ratio of your rear suspension, then buy a specific off-the-shelf Swift or Hyperco spring that will give the same ride height but with a higher spring rate.
 
I've never heard of this before unless the springs were either heated or cut to lower the vehicle but I guess it could be possible. Get a set of the new 2012+ MZ5 rear springs. Maybe the so called "improved stronger" suspension helps.

Yes, resurrectiong an old thread here, but down to the wire. Already bought the tires & want to get the brakes/springs situation addressed by the time I install the tires.

Davicho said the 2012 springs are a higher spring rate? Can anyone confirm??
 
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