best "compromise" alignment ideas?

[chris1866]

So i've heard a good alignment makes quite a difference on the autox course. I haven't really bother with any of that and for the last several years have been working strictly on improving my driving.

Once i got my extra set of rims and hoosier A6s, i gave myself a few events to get used to them, and now i feel i'm ready to get a good, aggressive alignment.

Here's the thing, though. I want something that will help out as much as possible on the autox course, but also be ok on the street. I really can't afford to get an alignment every event and again after every event for the street.
I think it would be best to get as much negative camber as possible, but to leave the toe at 0 all around. Is this accurate? I know people have experimented with a little toe-out, but i don't think i want to given the effect it could have on my street tires.

This is on a DS MSP.

thanks in advance guys.

 

[R2s99zoom]

Why not find out how hard it is to change the toe by hand, and get some toe plates to check/set toe, and some camber plates, so you can adjust that while waiting for the driver's meeting before grid?

is the MSP strut or dbl wishbone suspension?

Also, keep in mind, if I remember correctly, the MSP is front-wheel drive, so too much negative camber can hurt you, because it would take away from front grip when not turning, important on that car for both braking and accellerating.


as far as keeping the car streetable, 0 toe is necessary... but a little bit of toe out in the front, and a little toe in in the rear can make DRASTIC improvements to handling at autocross. And also DRASTIC negatives to street/highway handling.

 

[chris1866]

suspension is strut.
Camber plates and such are not allowed in stock class.

 

[R2s99zoom]

Ahh, you are correct. Since camber plates are legal in STS I assumed they'd be legal in stock as well.... but I double checked the SCCA rules and you're right ehe

but depending on how involved it is to adjust the toe on the msp, you could still use the toe plates, since they're a tool, not a part.... not the easiest way to do it, but cheap.

we use these to check/set the toe on our 7:
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=152&catid=5

being your daily, as far as having the camber set, I'd be hesitant to get very aggressive due to tire wear... I'd probably try something in the neighborhood of 1.5 degrees

 

[khaosman]

You won't really be able to get much more camber than that in stock class anyway. You can rotate the strut to get more negative camber. Try to search for it, it's been discussed and will show where to set it for max negative camber.

 

[JRTritsch]

Second that. "Crash bolts" in the strut maybe, its walking a fine line.
You WON'T be able to even get enough camber to reach a good compromise.

Can't get enough camber in the front, camber is definitely your friend on the msp

Toe-out makes the car wander/feel somewhat unstable at high speed. You can set it for 0, go to an event and make one revolution tighten it and then do the same at the end of the day..

 

[macklum]

This is how I have my car set up .first the front top plate dot are facing in towards the radiator , I am running 0 toe on all 4 corners and -1 degree of camber ( used "crash" bolt ). the car isnt twichy at all ,centers well yet will turn in when i need the car to . I also have Tokioc Blue's and Tein S Tech springs with MSP sway bars and the Clunk fix bracket kit

 

[chris1866]

well my suspension is (obviously) completely stock.

So you guys are saying that if i use the "crash bolt" on the front swaybar, i will be able to maximize negative camber? (about -1 or just more than that)
And that i should leave it at 0 toe (like i thought originally) and this won't screw up the wear on my street tires but should help on the course?

 

[moxnix]

Crash bolts are not stock legal for the MSP.

 

[chris1866]

sooo.....i gather all i can do is take it to the alignment shop and tell them to put as much negative camber all around as they can with 0 toe?

or is it not even worth it?

 

[Rogue]

there's a guy locally that ran an MP3 in GS, and did really well. He actually did some toe out in the rear to help rotate. Send a PM to apexlater, and ask about his setup on his old MP3. It may take a while to get a response since he and his wife just had a baby.

 

[Gobbracing]

The little search option is really helpful:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123667800&highlight=msp+alignment

 

[chris1866]

The little search option is really helpful:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123667800&highlight=msp+alignment

I've read through that thread plenty of times---i even contributed several posts.

According to your post-- the best way to do it is run 0 toe all around and as much negative camber as you can.
That's what i've been saying.......just want someone to verify it for me.

 

[moxnix]

Actually unless you are running the staggered tire sizes I don't think that alignment is best. If you are running the same size all around I think you will need some changes in the rear for rotation and maybe in the front for turn in.

As much negative camber as you can get in the front is what you want but the only ways to get any is to turn the strut tops (easy) and then to loosen all the bolts and tighten up while pulling for the last little bit of camber.

 

[Gobbracing]

Best no investment alignment improvement for the MSP:
Green dot on the top plates aimed outer front=more caster and camber.

 

[apexlater]

I did the strut top rotate on the MP3 and managed to get -1 in the front with the slop in the sub-frame and bolts. I ran 1/8" total toe out in the front (even daily) and it did chew up my tires pretty good on the inside. I ran as little negative camber in the rear as possible with the given slop in the suspension and ran 3/8" total toe out, 0 total toe for the street.

I did all my alignments myself the day before events. The rears I found that the cams would give me a max of 1/2" total toe in or out at their max. So I knew the middle would be my street (zero) toe and I moved the cams to the get -3/8" total toe out and marked them so I could change back and forth pretty quickly. Also, knowing the extents of the cams I was able to make toe adjustments at the event if I really needed to and have an idea about how much I was changing.

If I were to do it again I think I would run either just a hair of total toe out in the front or zero toe in the front (the wheels will naturally toe out a little at speed). The car never had a problem with turn-in, but wheel-spin was a huge obstacle. Also, having less toe out in the front would have allowed me to steer less mid-corner/exit and let me straighten the wheel sooner.



What was the question again?

Oh yeah, get as much front camber as you can (legally). It's easy to adjust the rear toe if you have toe plates and a tape measure. Like I said, you could get away with doing it once, say at an alignment shop, and marking both settings.

 

[chris1866]

sounds good. thanks for the advice.

I'm still kinda worried about toe chewing up my street tires (really need to make these things last). so i'll have to give is some thought.

Interesting you mention wheelspin. i've had serious problems with it ever since i went to the A6s. I've tried messing with the pressures (dropping them down), but i obviously can't do that too much otherwise they roll over and that's also bad. A lot of people run hoosiers REALLY high (like 51 or 52 in the front) and i'm hovering around 48 or so. Wonder if it's an alignment issue.....?

 

[apexlater]

Also driving style can contribute to the wheelspin. The MSP (like the MP3) has a fairly large front swaybar from the factory, and that is one of the main culprets.

I always wanted to try a smaller front swaybar, but I worried about losing the roll resistance and camber loss mid-corner. I think it would be worth testing. Plus it would help the car rotate more with the larger rear bar bias with a smaller front bar.

RE: Tire wear
If you rotate your tires fairly frequently front to back, and flip the tire on the rim if they are wearing alot on the shoulder, you should be able to get decent tire life even with spirited driving.