Autocrossing and a modified MS3...help!!

[Texaco]

This is what my tires (racing set) look like... I bought the wheels with these tires; I didn't buy it for the tires...
Figured I'd race with them till they were spent...

According to Ab Lincoln, they are already spent... (lol2)
Would this be the cause of my excessive wheel spin?

For track purposes, the less tread pattern the better. What tires stick the best? Race slicks with no tread pattern (dry track only).

Get those babies closer to the cords and they just might perform better. Formula One race cars were forced to go to common tread pattern to slow the cars down. They were running slicks in the past..

More rubber touching the road means better traction (as long as they don't overheat). The tread pattern is there for the masses that have to deal with rain and snow. Plus a tread pattern makes the tire run cooler and extends tire life.

Our stock tires (as in your picture) have very little tread pattern. Almost look like formula one tires when worn a bit. Obviously why they suck so bad in snow/ice.

 

[enganear]

Autox tires typically have a shelf life of less than 2 years. Even if they look new, they will be too hard to provide good traction. Tire compound can restore some traction at the expense of rapid wear.

My advice is use them up and learn to get the most from them. When you get good tires you will be even faster.
-enganear

 

[AutoXRacer]

I was hoping that these tires lost traction as they wore down. Its like driving in the rain with these tires... I don't get it.

My stock tires do spin also, but I thought it was due to being a lot more narrow...

In my previous car, Miata, I was able to spin the stock tires easily, but when I upgraded to Azenis/MXs, they spun also, but you could feel the tires trying to grip...

I guess I need more seat time with the throttle. Not used to a high torque car.

Great idea, I'll practice/learn throttle control with these tires some more...

 

[Sacrilicious]

as enganeer said (if i read his post correctly), tire compound does not last forever. with exposure to weather, cold, etc., it starts losing some of its grip even though you may not have used them a whole lot. this is why it's sometimes very hard to take even some of the more scientific tire tests (tirerack comes to mind) seriously, because you simply do not know how it will hold up in the long run.

i mean, if you think about it, tires go through a HELL of a beating when it comes to temperature changes. yes, they are tested for high temperature operations, but what about temperature cycling like in the winter, when you go from cold as hell to operating temps and back again? i know it doesn't affect you nearly as much in FL, but that's just an example of the kind of beating that tires get that are not accounted for when people use and abuse them over time.

my main point is just that there's more than one reason why you should replace your tires by the time the treads wear out. get new tires, and i'm willing to bet that you will get a noticeable boost in traction...

EDIT: if you want to get the advantages from lower tread that texaco is talking about, i would consider shaving the tires instead of waiting for them to wear for best results...=d

 

[Saitech]

You seem to have nice and even tire wear. My tire wear after one season was heavier on the outside. There is a quite a bit of talk about tires, springs, etc, so I don't need to talk about that.

If there are some other faster ms3s autoxing then it might be worthwhile to sit in and see how they are driving differently. Pay attention to the transition from full brake--->reduced break/adding steering--->full steering--->reduced steering/adding throttle--->full throttle. It really helps to correlate all that with the direction and amount of force you are feeling in a turn. Hopefully, your subconscious absorbs that and then you can mimic that in your runs.

I ran the stock tires last year and realized I was getting on the throttle waaay too early. Once the tires break loose, it's over, kinetic friction takes over and you are just burning rubber/making noise...but you look cool. :-D I think there will always be squealing with our Potenza though. With all that adrenaline pumping, it's easy to floor the gas.

About traction/dsc, turn all that off. I wish there was a way to turn off ABS as well. The aids might help you but in fact they are just masking the driver's fault. If you learn to drive without aids then you will undo any bad habits that you might have.

Autoxing is a lot of fun. I was dead last in my first two races, it took a little bit of time to understand how to drive the car.

 

[bacarl]

... In my previous car, Miata, I was able to spin the stock tires easily, but when I upgraded to Azenis/MXs, they spun also, but you could feel the tires trying to grip...

I guess I need more seat time with the throttle. Not used to a high torque [FWD] car...

Fixed for you

Along the lines of enganear's post, could the RX-8 tires be old (age-hardened)? I realize that the Potenzas are not comparable compound-wise to an Azenis, but if they're old enough, they will certainly harden somewhat.

Another thing: the last autocross I ran in my Focus was on ContiSportContacts with very roughly 20k miles on them. The tread wear looked similar to your photos, maybe a bit more tread. It was definitely time to replace them. I was running hot-runs during that race, or whatever it's called when your runs are back-to-back, and by the third run the tires felt so greasy that I was pushing through corners and spinning more than I wanted. I took a break and let them cool before my next runs.

Incidentally, those tires really were shot for street use, because it rained on my way home, and I spun out and crashed! Just a tip if you drive home on your race tires. (2thumbs)

If your tires are older, worn out, and excessively heat-cycled, they're more than likely simply toasted. It is still good advice to practice on them, though. You'll be pleasantly surprised with new rubber!

 

[northmiler89]

r comps.

 

[AutoXRacer]

r comps.

I wish... (lol2)

 

[Mocoso]

For track purposes, the less tread pattern the better. What tires stick the best? Race slicks with no tread pattern (dry track only).

Get those babies closer to the cords and they just might perform better. Formula One race cars were forced to go to common tread pattern to slow the cars down. They were running slicks in the past..

More rubber touching the road means better traction (as long as they don't overheat). The tread pattern is there for the masses that have to deal with rain and snow. Plus a tread pattern makes the tire run cooler and extends tire life.

Our stock tires (as in your picture) have very little tread pattern. Almost look like formula one tires when worn a bit. Obviously why they suck so bad in snow/ice.

Your statement while true is also false... slicks from factory do have better traction than a tire with tread pattern from factory... I completly agree with that part...

The problem with assuming that tires down to the chord will have better traction than the same tire with patterns that is new is you are assuming the rubber compound down at the chords has the same characteristics as that in the tread pattern... this isnt true in a lot of the modern tires....

The rubber is actually layered with the tread pattern usually being softer and stickier while the rubber down at the chords is harder.... hard rubber at the chords SUCKS for traction - this isnt my opinion but facts as experienced with my Goodyear F1 supercar runflats... the tire loses some of the flex as well which means less contact patch on the ground....the tires just sucked period after they had worn out and it wasnt due to snow/ice but the inability of the hard rubber to stick and of the tire to flex

 

[Sacrilicious]

The rubber is actually layered with the tread pattern usually being softer and stickier while the rubber down at the chords is harder.... hard rubber at the chords SUCKS for traction - this isnt my opinion but facts as experienced with my Goodyear F1 supercar runflats... the tire loses some of the flex as well which means less contact patch on the ground....the tires just sucked period after they had worn out and it wasnt due to snow/ice but the inability of the hard rubber to stick and of the tire to flex

ahhhh...the sneaky bastards! :O


...but seriously, that makes a lot of sense that they produce the tires like that, since it's just so much more structurally sound...=d

 

[Texaco]

Your statement while true is also false... slicks from factory do have better traction than a tire with tread pattern from factory... I completly agree with that part...

The problem with assuming that tires down to the chord will have better traction than the same tire with patterns that is new is you are assuming the rubber compound down at the chords has the same characteristics as that in the tread pattern... this isnt true in a lot of the modern tires....

The rubber is actually layered with the tread pattern usually being softer and stickier while the rubber down at the chords is harder.... hard rubber at the chords SUCKS for traction - this isnt my opinion but facts as experienced with my Goodyear F1 supercar runflats... the tire loses some of the flex as well which means less contact patch on the ground....the tires just sucked period after they had worn out and it wasnt due to snow/ice but the inability of the hard rubber to stick and of the tire to flex

Well I was exaggerating a bit about going down to the cords, not a place to be on the track. The point was looking at the tire from a street safety standpoint versus how it might perform on the track. I still believe that a lower tread profile means less tread flex, and even lower puts more rubber on the road. If the tire has a harder compound below the tread, then I agree with you.

 

[chaos4]

Let's see: You have no traction and your traction control is off. DUH!
And, pray tell, how is it that you "leave the DSC on" and turn off the traction control? Have you found some switch that I am missing? I have no traction control switch on my MS3, just the DSC switch (which ALSO disables the traction control, BTW).

 

[AutoXRacer]

Let's see: You have no traction and your traction control is off. DUH!
And, pray tell, how is it that you "leave the DSC on" and turn off the traction control? Have you found some switch that I am missing? I have no traction control switch on my MS3, just the DSC switch (which ALSO disables the traction control, BTW).

Previously to this thread, I was not aware we (our MS3) had a two stage traction control... simply pressing the "button" reduces the level of traction control... Doing the "start-up procedure" fully disables the traction control in addition to the dynamic stability control...

Every time I simply pressed the "button" I could spin tires a will... I thought that the traction control was fully disabled since I could spin them at will...never thought the ECU was still in control...

 

[Craighjr]

Let's see: You have no traction and your traction control is off. DUH!
And, pray tell, how is it that you "leave the DSC on" and turn off the traction control? Have you found some switch that I am missing? I have no traction control switch on my MS3, just the DSC switch (which ALSO disables the traction control, BTW).

No need to be a b**** we already explaind how the system works.

 

[happy and angry]

It sounds like you need a driver mod. Maybe you should focus on driving better and being competitive in your bracket against stock MS3's instead of trying to throw more car at the problem.

 

[ericrapp]

After engine startup if you press that button the dsc light does come on. It doesn't mean that traction control is disabled. It has simply pushed the threshhold back much farther so you can spin the tires and what not without having it cut in suddenly, up to a certain point.

As for which to use on Autocross, I'd suggest either just toggling off the dsc prior to your runs, or disabling both (press the button on initial startup and hold it for 3seconds say). You are correct in that running through a course with dsc on will lower your times. For me it was a matter of over 2 seconds since I lost boost several times when it sensed some tire slip.

Light on dash means disable traction and I am not sure about side to side brake balancing, but with dsc enabled at 2nd gear full throttle wheelspin it reacted by shutting down as if motor had stopped turning . I always push DSC button, light on dash appears, fasten seat belt securely and let er run!

 

[drledford93]

You should learn to carry more speed through the turn. Scrub speed by sliding the car (off throttle oversteer) and by letting the car push slightly before turn in. This takes some serious balls, but when you do it right it works!

I haven't raced in a while ('00 was my last National Tour win), but learning to turn the car instead of braking is the best way of going fast. People used to laugh at me when they watched me do runs in my awd eclipse until they saw my times! (wow) (I would get close to FTD vs good level modified competition--I was in G stock...)

Daniel

 

[ccann26]

I had a lot of spinning issues also last time I autocrossed this time Im prepared I just got my OZ crono ht's 18x8 and Nitto Nt01's 235's hopes its not too much rubber for a fender roll . Seems like the falkens are on a National backorder or they would have been my choice I may do a little better this time . (friday)

 

[fragchild]

AutoX are you heading to Palm Bay this weekend? If so I may see ya out there Sunday.

 

[crossbow]

Try some hankook Z212's next time. They're nearly as grippy as the falkens, but have better wet traction. Not as stiff a sidewall though.

Also the dunlop Z1's are on sale now.