AMS Mazda Speed 3 Test: The in's and outs of the MS3 powerplant

[Chris@AMS]

StephanieT - I am not going to pick apart every statement you made because it is not going to prove my point here.

Changing whether or not the car is going into open loop is not going to make the car spool 1000 rpms faster, period. Explain how this is supposed to work...

The car will give different results in 3rd gear, 4th gear, 1500 rpm start of the run and 2500 rpm start of the run. It does, it is fact, I have tested it.

Depending on where you are on the map I could see how uncorrected could give a lower number. This is a good reason to use SAE correction...

My point was made clearly and I still stand by what I said.

 

[Chris@AMS]

all he is saying that the dyno graph doesn't look right and it doesn't, I believe a member on another forum actually photochopped the two plots together so people could read it. I don't doubt that there are gains with the xede, but I would like to see a better dyno of the results, before I bought one.

EXACTLY

 

[Nutari]

Totally stock dyno sheet.

 

[StephanieT]

Changing whether or not the car is going into open loop is not going to make the car spool 1000 rpms faster, period. Explain how this is supposed to work...

"When one has the ability to control the needed aspects of the engine, anything is possible. " Open loop is just an example. Can't reveal ALL my secrets, eh?

The car will give different results in 3rd gear, 4th gear, 1500 rpm start of the run and 2500 rpm start of the run. It does, it is fact, I have tested it.

I am well aware of that. There is a different boost limit in 3rd gear.

Depending on where you are on the map I could see how uncorrected could give a lower number. This is a good reason to use SAE correction...

My point was made clearly and I still stand by what I said

My doors are open. I invite you to stop in and dyno it yourself. I have never participated in altering dyno files, runs etc... nor will I or anyone we are affiliated with.
Stephanie

 

[Kooldino]

the boost cut on almost every turbo mazda is related to mass air flow.

Exactly. And they can be tuned around regardless if you're using a piggyback or not.

Just remember folks, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[JOMO]

Is it me, or does this dyno not jive? At 5252rpm on Run1, we have ~102whp (light red) and 210wtq (dark red).

Am I missing something or does that look odd?

I agree, seems odd.

 

[vindication]

hah, didn't even notice that. I knew our mazdas were "special". I wonder why they didn't cross?

 

[Kooldino]

Totally stock dyno sheet.

Now that's a legit dyno sheet.

Sure, the AMS one looks a bit high, but just like Chris said, a dyno is a tool. You can't compare dynos directly unless they are back to back in the same conditions at the same dyno with the planets aligned the same way.

 

[Nutari]

Anyway guys. Lets stop cluttering up AMS's thread with our numbers. They have alot of valid points. I just felt the need to defend ourselves when they flat out called our numbers BS.

VERY unprofessional.


back to AMS.

 

[Grodzman]

Is it me, or does this dyno not jive? At 5252rpm on Run1, we have ~102whp (light red) and 210wtq (dark red).

Am I missing something or does that look odd?

I think you misread the chart. The reason the tq/hp don't cross is because the scales are different (look at the left side of the graph [power/hp] and the right side [torque/tq]). If you use the proper measurements the hp/tq ARE the same at 5252. (Horsepower = (TQ * RPM)/ 5252) I hate it when this is done on dyno plots, it makes things look a little weird.

Even in comparison to their baseline though, the comparison chart is skewed and funky looking, seems like it's just not lined up right. Look at their standalone base run, that one looks normal.

 

[low_psi]

Uncorrected #'s are usually less than corrected ones due to elevation, humidity and temperature.

I personally have never seen a dyno sheet with LESS HP/TQ uncorrected than with an SAE correction. Regardless, trying to compare dyno numbers is futile. You can make a dyno read what ever you want.

 

[Nutari]

Anyway guys. Lets stop cluttering up AMS's thread with our numbers. They have alot of valid points. I just felt the need to defend ourselves when they flat out called our numbers BS.

VERY unprofessional.


back to AMS.

ahem.

 

[Chris@AMS]

Totally stock dyno sheet.

The run was started at 3000 rpm

 

[Captain KRM P5]

for what its worth, nutari is getting his XEDE unit today and he is going to to some before/after dyno pulls with it. i have been working with BEGi for many years and and am a firm believer in thier work, parts and words. their dynos in the miata community compared to the direct competition are regarded as more accurate. the XEDE in the miata community is dynoed accurately in terms of gains, independently verified. i know for my own products made by them, my dyno claims were well within thier own. heck, we dynoed a stock mazdaspeed6 and showed 215whp and people told me i was full of crap as were my dyno charts. like dana said, every dyno is going react at least a little different.

i also know AMS being that they are within a stone's throw from me, and thier reputation for tuning cars in the DSM community, locally and abroad. i am confident both companies have something to offer the community.

 

[Chris@AMS]

Anyway guys. Lets stop cluttering up AMS's thread with our numbers. They have alot of valid points. I just felt the need to defend ourselves when they flat out called our numbers BS.

VERY unprofessional.


back to AMS.

I call it like I see it, I still haven't seen any evidence otherwise. However, I agree, this is going nowhere.

I still maintain that I have never attacked BEGI. I still maintain that the chart is :bs: . Keep all your further opinions to yourselves and believe who you want to believe.

 

[Anon Y Mous]

I know both companies to be very compitent and I could frankly care less which unit I get as long as they both do what I want them to do and from all initial ramblings they do.

problem solved.

 

[Kooldino]

I think you misread the chart. The reason the tq/hp don't cross is because the scales are different (look at the left side of the graph [power/hp] and the right side [torque/tq]). If you use the proper measurements the hp/tq ARE the same at 5252. (Horsepower = (TQ * RPM)/ 5252) I hate it when this is done on dyno plots, it makes things look a little weird.

Even in comparison to their baseline though, the comparison chart is skewed and funky looking, seems like it's just not lined up right. Look at their standalone base run, that one looks normal.

As I stated above, I recognize that, and took it into account. Look at the Run1 HP line at 5252rpm. Now follow it left to see the HP number. Look at the Run1 TQ line at 5252rpm and follow it to the right to see the TQ line. That's where I got my numbers from. Using this method makes the scale irrelevant.

EDIT: I mixed myself up initially, and followed the TQ line to the left and the HP line to the right instead of the other way around. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Kooldino]

I think you misread the chart. The reason the tq/hp don't cross is because the scales are different (look at the left side of the graph [power/hp] and the right side [torque/tq]). If you use the proper measurements the hp/tq ARE the same at 5252. (Horsepower = (TQ * RPM)/ 5252) I hate it when this is done on dyno plots, it makes things look a little weird.

I just double checked my own numbers, and I must have been following the lines to the wrong side the first time, even though I knew the scale was different. I retract my previous statement. The chart checks out. But goddamn, I will always hate the dual scale charts. Even when you're aware of it, it can still throw you for a loop at first glance.

Even in comparison to their baseline though, the comparison chart is skewed and funky looking, seems like it's just not lined up right. Look at their standalone base run, that one looks normal.

Indeed it does.

 

[Saitech]

all he is saying that the dyno graph doesn't look right and it doesn't, I believe a member on another forum actually photochopped the two plots together so people could read it. I don't doubt that there are gains with the xede, but I would like to see a better dyno of the results, before I bought one.

Hope this helps some of you. I just moved the two torque lines up 100 points and changed the label on the torque axis, that's all.

 

[Rainman]

MazdaSpeed Dyno Testing
by Chris Black


*Written by Chris Black, a tuner at AMS.*


Eric

Thank you for this information. This has got to be one of the most complete and informative posts that I have seen on this forum in a long, long while.

Great job.

R