Advice needed: aligning the drop

palerider

Member
:
mazdaspeed3 black mica
Three questions...

1. What kind of toe should we be shooting for after a drop of at least 1"

2. How many degrees of negative camber starts to hinder performance?

3. How do you adjust camber on the front wheels? I know the back has links, which Ive got ordered for my coils. But the front needs it too. Can it be adjusted?

Thanks in advance. I searched and found the factory specs(Do these still apply after the drop?). Hopefully Im not rehashing to much old stuff here... You guys that saw my picture thread knew this was coming, lol:)
 
Last edited:
I think that as much camber as we can get would be best, Front and back.
Those rear links are people more concerned about tire wear. The rear camber will be nice and high if you do not install them, around 3 degrees or so. I personally want to get 3.5-4 degrees in the front. This would not help in straight line grip. I am far more concerened with twisty roads(headbang) than I am about straight line performance. For the front there is a bit of play on the upper mount holes on the shock tower.To get as much camber as I would like I think it will need adjustable pillowball upper mounts. Has anyone found any that will our cars? (with coilovers) I still have not found any, I may end up making some. I also am contemplating moddifying the lower a frame to get more camber adjustabilty.
as for toe, a little toe out on the rear will free up the rear end up a little. Getting rid of some of ff's tendancy to understeer.
 
Wow thank you that was great. Ive got 1.5 degrees on the front right now, after the drop. I dont know the back but it looks like more. Im not worried about tire wear.... I plan on wearing out tires fast anyway. My car feels great after just a front end alignment. They got rid of 1/16 toe and adjusted in to a heavy 1/8.... for better straight line accel I presume?

Thanks again... your post makes me feel better.
 
I would say toe stock all around. Camber would be safe at the maxed out negative on the stock alignment. So if the spec is -.5 degrees with a 1.0 tolerance I would run that at -1.5 then. I did this on my WRX and never destroyed tires while it handled well still.
 
neg camber is good , i ran -2.5 on street cars and rotated every 7000 miles.

its the TOE that you have to zero out.

dont worry about the camber just get the toe zero for tire wear.

neg camber is good for handling.
MY experience past 7 cars all tracked and street driven, no tire isssue!

again get the toe set to zero.

only mess with the camber in front/rear if you are seriuosly tracking your car then youll need camber kit
 
No problem. So are you not going to bother with the camber links? Also is that toe in or out?

On the front, it was toe out...1/16, they adjusted to.. toe in a heavy 1/8. My understanding was it would help with straight line accel.

I verbally ordered the camber links with Ken, and I still want them... but its nice to know that I absolutely dont need or have to have them. The rear I assume is toed out right now.... visually lots of negative camber but I didnt have it measured yet

Rear toed out. Front toed in....lol. Every part of this modding thing is new to me. Im having one hell of a fun ride though:) No more palerider Im the sidewinder!!!!
 
neg camber is good , i ran -2.5 on street cars and rotated every 7000 miles.

its the TOE that you have to zero out.

dont worry about the camber just get the toe zero for tire wear.

neg camber is good for handling.
MY experience past 7 cars all tracked and street driven, no tire isssue!

again get the toe set to zero.

only mess with the camber in front/rear if you are seriuosly tracking your car then youll need camber kit

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297

One last question guys. Craig you said stock toe... Racecar you said zeroed out toe.

The spec sheet shows toe in for both front and back as stock recommendations. By stock do you mean zeroed out.. or is zeroed out mean literally to shoot for zero.

Plus.... how the hell do you read that chart. My alignment guy who let me watch the whole process intimately... adjusted it in a heavy 1/8 on the front. This seems TOO heavy based on the chart .04-.12.... thats more like a heavy 1/16 right?

I know this is nitpicky but i just want to UNDERSTAND!!! Thanks again guys.
 
Last edited:
neg camber is good , i ran -2.5 on street cars and rotated every 7000 miles.

its the TOE that you have to zero out.

dont worry about the camber just get the toe zero for tire wear.

neg camber is good for handling.
MY experience past 7 cars all tracked and street driven, no tire isssue!

again get the toe set to zero.

only mess with the camber in front/rear if you are seriuosly tracking your car then youll need camber kit


not to be a dick but you are wrong. camber is the biggest tire wearing factor there is, toe is 2nd. negative camber will destroy tires very rapidly (so will positive camber) also, negative camber is not going to help handling by any means, riding on the outside edges of your tires does nothing except make your car handle worse. the more tire on the road the more grip you have, therefore the more grip you have entering and exiting corners.
if you are lowered more than 2 inches i would advise a camber adjustment when you get your alignment.
i have my car lowered 2 inches all around and within the first 2 weeks i alread started wearing the tires down due to too much negative camber.
also 4 degrees of positive camber is ridiculous, that would effect the car worse than negative camber.

as far as toe goes, theres no reason to have your tires toed in or out. to the thread starter: zero out your toe and have your camber adjusted within OEM specification (zero camber isnt absolutely necessary) you can run -.5 degrees on both sides and not experience any tire wear or handling issues. i would recommend going to a reputible shop for the alignment, any place that uses laser aligners would be preferred as they are more precise than other machines.
 
Last edited:
not to be a dick but you are wrong. camber is the biggest tire wearing factor there is, toe is 2nd. negative camber will destroy tires very rapidly (so will positive camber) also, negative camber is not going to help handling by any means, riding on the outside edges of your tires does nothing except make your car handle worse. the more tire on the road the more grip you have, therefore the more grip you have entering and exiting corners.
if you are lowered more than 2 inches i would advise a camber adjustment when you get your alignment.
i have my car lowered 2 inches all around and within the first 2 weeks i alread started wearing the tires down due to too much negative camber.
also 4 degrees of positive camber is ridiculous, that would effect the car worse than negative camber.

as far as toe goes, theres no reason to have your tires toed in or out. to the thread starter: zero out your toe and have your camber adjusted within OEM specification (zero camber isnt absolutely necessary) you can run -.5 degrees on both sides and not experience any tire wear or handling issues. i would recommend going to a reputible shop for the alignment, any place that uses laser aligners would be preferred as they are more precise than other machines.

Dude read up a little. (lol)

Ever notice when your sitting behind any proper sports car how much camber they run.

Straght from scc.

Making It Stick Part 2 - Negative Camber
The Comprehensive Suspension Tuning Guide
By Jared Holstein
Photography by Jared Holstein
writer: Mike Kojima, Ti Tong
photographer: Ti Tong

Part 2: Four More Steps To Better Handling

In part one of this series (SCC, June '05) you learned four basic steps to improving your car's handling. Those steps were easy. They involved the use of basic performance suspension parts available for most cars and, no doubt, many of you have already taken those steps. This month we explore more advanced suspension tuning through alignment, chassis stiffness and suspension geometry.

Step Five: Add Negative Camber
For a tire to grip well, it must use all of its contact patch. Thanks to problems like tire distortion and compromised suspension geometry, this rarely happens. When a tire is subjected to side load, its sidewalls flex, digging the outside tread into the ground and lifting the inside.

If you drive hard, you've probably noticed the outside edge of your tires gets chewed up much faster than the rest of the tread. That means the tire isn't using all of its contact patch effectively.

As a car rolls in a corner, the chassis rolls the tire onto its outside edge, making the problem worse. Keeping the tires flat on the road is the primary reason to reduce roll. In part one we listed several ways to do this; the easiest ways are to increase spring rate or use larger anti-roll bars.

The primary tool, however, used for combating tread lift is to dial in more negative camber. Camber is the inward or outward tilt of the tires when looking at them from the front. If the top of the tire leans outward, camber is positive. If the top of the tire leans inward, camber is negative.

Dialing in negative camber helps combat tread lift and wheel tilt. The trick is to add just enough negative camber so the tread stays flat and 100 percent engaged with the ground under side load and roll. But, adding too much negative camber will hurt more than it helps. Too much negative camber will:

1. Reduce braking traction

2. Reduce acceleration traction if it's applied on the drive wheels

3. Increase the tendency to follow cracks and grooves in the pavement

4. Increase wandering caused by road crown

5. Affect tire wear; the insides of the tire tread will wear faster with more negative camber if you don't corner hard. Conversely, if you constantly corner hard, your tires will wear more evenly and last longer
 
Palerider here is a guide for toe.
Aggressive Street Driver
Front
FWD/AWD: 0

Rear
FWD/AWD: 0

Weekend Hot Lapper
Front
FWD/AWD: 0-1/8" Out

Rear
FWD/AWD: 0-1/8" Out

Racer Only
Front
FWD/AWD: 1/8-1/4" out

Rear
FWD/AWD: 0-1/4" out
 
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297

One last question guys. Craig you said stock toe... Racecar you said zeroed out toe.

I know this is nitpicky but i just want to UNDERSTAND!!! Thanks again guys.

Hey I have never seen an alignment spec sheet like that. (its a mess) I have only used Hunter alignment racks and computers. I have always taken the time to make sure my alignments were perfectly even. If the computer spec said .04" toe thats what I would hit on both sides. Mazda thought about the alignment specs for the car reguarding tire wear, handleing, and predictability. Why screw with thier numbers and just wing it with the above 1/8" to 1/4" race toe settings. When doing the alignment usualy each andjustment has a green bar that goes to yellow then red as you move off of the perfect center of the adjustment. So for toe I would (and will when I drop mine) get the numbers right on spec. For camber bring them in as far negative that the computer still figures out as in spec.

OK I rechecked your specs there. If they are for a Speed 3 I would say you want .04" of toe all around. Thats spec all around. Front neagative camber around -1.40 and rear at -2.09 to -2.18 depending on your fuel level at the alignment. Caster is non adjustable at this point so hope that it is even because caster will cause pull but not tire wear.
 
Last edited:
Hey I have never seen an alignment spec sheet like that. (its a mess) I have only used Hunter alignment racks and computers. I have always taken the time to make sure my alignments were perfectly even. If the computer spec said .04" toe thats what I would hit on both sides. Mazda thought about the alignment specs for the car reguarding tire wear, handleing, and predictability. Why screw with thier numbers and just wing it with the above 1/8" to 1/4" race toe settings. When doing the alignment usualy each andjustment has a green bar that goes to yellow then red as you move off of the perfect center of the adjustment. So for toe I would (and will when I drop mine) get the numbers right on spec. For camber bring them in as far negative that the computer still figures out as in spec.

OK I rechecked your specs there. If they are for a Speed 3 I would say you want .04" of toe all around. Thats spec all around. Front neagative camber around -1.40 and rear at -2.09 to -2.18 depending on your fuel level at the alignment. Caster is non adjustable at this point so hope that it is even because caster will cause pull but not tire wear.


Your saying my guide is a mess why?
You think I am winging it when it comes to these specs. That is not the case, like i said if you want to free up the tail of your car a little toe will help.
Are you fond of understeer? Or do only drag race your car? (get a camaro) If you do actually drive your car then these little tricks will make corners much more fun. Don't call my post a mess, maybe instead you could broaden your knowledege about making a car handle better; ask me to explain why these settings are benificial. As for the engineers at mazda, they know more than you and I. However they have to design cars for the masses. This is why thier specs are for good tire wear, and relentless understeer. As for "winging it".It looks like your messing with mazda well thought out design.
Thats alot of mods with "no tune". Why did you mess with it? Same reason as would mess around with suspension settings; you want your car to do things it can't stock. Hope you read into this stuff, driving is more than just straight line speed. (wrc)
 
Im sorry but I am not wrong. You really do need to read and do more.
you prob had issues with your tire wear either becuase you didnt get your car aligned after you dropped it? or because the shop didnt do a good job aligning your toe. or your car other issues like bent suspension.
with a 2 inch drop you def need to get an alignment for sure. Not sure why your tire wore out unless reasons stated above.

Im not talking out of my butt or things ive just heard. These are my actual experiences and things ive learned, so just sharing if you dont want to believe me thats fine.


Ive been doing this for past several years from actual hpde events and real experience. Ive had track only trailored cars for the past several years.

Toe will wear your tires out 1st if they are out of spec. You can get away with a lot of negative camber. stock specs usually for cars allow for neg camber, if you go to extreme then of course you will have problems. but -1.5 to -2 is not excessive. Do research on hondatech in the autocross forums if you want to learn more or see what other HPDE and autocrossers run.

Sorry about the toe zeroing out thing , i mean get the toe within specs.


usually on front wheel drive cars

you want it to behave a little like a rear wheel drive car.

by getting stiffer sway bars (on fwd cars you can just add rear, but you can get both front and rear).

other things more front neg camber than rear.

tire pressures. etc..

and spring rates rear sometimes more stiff than front.

on my track car setup

front spring rate 550, rear 750 ground control /koni yellow
-2.5 front , -2 rear camber
toe within spec
rear progress sway bar

car handled with some lift over steer.

like i said this is from real experiences and reading and asking on many forums.

If you ever drop your car though you have to get an alignment. and usually you can only adjust toe on most cars unless you have a camber kit. I dont know if you can adjust camber on the speed 3 since i just bought my car. on the wrx you can adjust a little but most people just got kits.

hope that helps.

if you arent going to get into hpde event or autocross dont even worry about what i said and just remember get an alignment within specs for toe and if camber is adjustable they will get that within specs also, and just drive the car




not to be a dick but you are wrong. camber is the biggest tire wearing factor there is, toe is 2nd. negative camber will destroy tires very rapidly (so will positive camber) also, negative camber is not going to help handling by any means, riding on the outside edges of your tires does nothing except make your car handle worse. the more tire on the road the more grip you have, therefore the more grip you have entering and exiting corners.
if you are lowered more than 2 inches i would advise a camber adjustment when you get your alignment.
i have my car lowered 2 inches all around and within the first 2 weeks i alread started wearing the tires down due to too much negative camber.
also 4 degrees of positive camber is ridiculous, that would effect the car worse than negative camber.

as far as toe goes, theres no reason to have your tires toed in or out. to the thread starter: zero out your toe and have your camber adjusted within OEM specification (zero camber isnt absolutely necessary) you can run -.5 degrees on both sides and not experience any tire wear or handling issues. i would recommend going to a reputible shop for the alignment, any place that uses laser aligners would be preferred as they are more precise than other machines.
 
Last edited:
if you have more negative camber in rear which the stock recommendations might be its becuas factory cars are setup to understeer.

But if you are not planning to get really into hpde events and track often i wouldnt set the car up that way unless you know how to handle oversteer, especially on a street driven vehicle.

but if you seriously autocross or hpde then those guys know what to do when you get oversteer or when the rear comes out.
 
(iagree) Have you ever tried using toe to free up the rear end more? I like a fairly loose rear end on my 3.

I'm guessing that your track car is an integra? If that is the case your specs are for a double wisbone suspension. Our inferior front macstrut setup needs more camber. Do to it's lack of camber gain would you agree? I would like to here more of what you have to say on this topic. thanks. (rockon)
 
Last edited:
Your saying my guide is a mess why?
You think I am winging it when it comes to these specs.
You didn't post the spec sheet? Palerider the OP did. Why are you getting your panties in a bunch. The sheet has specs in minutes, degrees, inches, in accordance with fuel levels. I am not used to that, I usually go to the alignment rack type up my info and work from the computers database. My advise is sound for a street driven car if you want to rant about nuts try this
I personally want to get 3.5-4 degrees in the front. This would not help in straight line grip. I am far more concerened with twisty roads than I am about straight line performance
Your not going to get far on your street tires with 4 degrees negative camber.

Pale if you would like to chime in with how you plan to drive (100% track, 50% track, 0% track time) maybe we can find the more suitable alignment recommendation. Yeah you can play with toe out tricks and all but you say it yourself your new to modding and don't understand the alignment adjustments. I don't see the point to straying too far from the stock set up just yet.
 
Last edited:
Sorry man, I thought you were talking about my post on toe. Fair enough, for a sound daily driver these settings are kind of redicoulous. I did say personally I want 3.5-4. I want to get close to one g on street tires. Also I was still not wearing out the inside more when i was running 3 degrees front and back; I love corners. With my driving style I get better tread wear with my over the top settings. Once again sorry about my misunderstanding. (wink)
 
I love corners. With my driving style I get better tread wear with my over the top settings. Once again sorry about my misunderstanding. (wink)

WOW I can't even find a corner near where I live that aproaches the limit of what the car can handle stock. Your very lucky lol.
 
Back