hypertech?

[tunersteve]

Sorry, just a bit frustrated about folks like Hypertech taking advantage of the Speed3/6 community and NO ONE, on this forum anyway, actually questioning their methods in any detail. These cars have rather finicky ECUs and will bite you quickly. I'll go away now, just think about the details....

You stepped in and asked the questions that a lot of us were thinking. Some of us (like you and myself) already have a solution and probably won't switch, but getting the info out to the masses (here especially) is a good thing for Hypertech if the hype is as good as the actual product.

Carry on good sir!

 

[BlackMS6BTO]

by all means carry on.. someone has to ask the questions and protect us. i am new to the Mazda platform... i am a former SRT4 guy so ... thank you sir

 

[FORZDA 1]

Notice we haven't had any response from the HYPErtech rep yet. Maybe tomorrow? FYI, I just reviewed their web site a bit closer and their device display says "The Most Powerful Tuning You Can Buy". That in and of itself tells you it is pure "hype".

The dyno chart on their website is done on a Speed3 FWD car. Note that on a (my)Speed6 AWD car that has at least 15% more drivetrain losses easily hits 266 ALLwhp and 310 ALLwtq on a basic tune from a different tuning service using a (full-capability) reflash. This was the first dyno run EVER for my car, not the result of 1000+ runs as HYPErtech says they spent trying to get their FWD Speed3 to run. Where is their boost/pressure data? Where is their AFR data? They aren't marketing to people who know what's going on, they're marketing "hype" to the unsuspecting consumer....

Notice that the torque and hp peak are moved up a bit in the rpm range to get the engine past the "critical" 3k rpm point where the max compressive loads on the connecting rods are most damaging. Also note the power doesn't take a huge nose dive like in their chart. I'm higher at peak and still making over 240hp at 6500 where their Speed3 has already tanked at less than 230. Always keep in mind that I'm driving all 4 wheels to hit these values, not just the fronts. You will NOT duplicate the HYPErtech numbers on a Speed6 with the Max Energy Sport Power Programmer - Part #62003.

The factory tuning put the stock power peak(s) much lower to appeal to the masses. This is all good on a completely stock car, but when you increase the power over stock you MUST move it up or chance the rods exiting the block in a big way. The connecting rods are the only weak point found so far. Lots of failure cases on "other" Speed forums. See attached dyno sheet for truth.

I don't care a whit which company makes the "best" parts either, so don't think I'm "hypeing" Cobb Tuning. I'm simply pointing out that the HYPErtech is NOT exactly what it claims. YOU be the judge and go in with your eyes open....

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Thanks for all the posts and questions. I want to apologize for taking so long to reply. It's been a crazy week here already!

I'll try to answer all the questions since my last post. If I miss something, or you have other questions, let me know.

I understand there are a lot of quesitons about our tuning methods, what we do, how we do it, etc. We didn't make a 1,000 pulls on our dyno because we didn't know how to tune. We made 1,000 pulls to make sure that we learned everything we could about these vehicles before releasing a product for sale to the public. We wouldn't even be on here answering these questions if we were trying to mislead or take advantage of the Mazda community.

I also apologize for leaving out some important product info. In my enthusiasm to get on here and discuss our product with all of you, I forgot some basic information about our product.

The Max Energy Sport is a programmer. It plugs into the diagnostic port, and reflashes the car's ECU with the Hypertech tuning files. It stores a copy of the stock calibration files for that vehicle, so that it can be returned to stock at any time. The programmer doesn't stay plugged in, and doesn't have any PID monitoring functions. It will read and clear DTC's. It has options to raise the top speed limiter, and raise or lower the engine rev limiter.

Every product that Hypertech sells is 50-state emission legal. The tuning for the Mazda vehicles is currently pending CARB certification, and will be 50 state legal when the certification procedure is complete. All of our products are designed to work in the limits of the vehicle as designed by the OEM. Our tuning will not void your factory warranty, or cause damage to any factory engine, drivetrain, or emission component covered under your factory warranty.

Our tuning is designed for someone with a stock vehicle, with basic bolt ons such as cold air intakes and cat back exhausts. Any modifications beyond these usually require custom tuning. Since we advertise and sell our products to be warranty safe and emission legal, we don't offer any custom tuning options in our programmer. It's simply not our market. There are good products out there already that support custom tuning modifications, such as Cobb and Cp-e. We do not advertise or market our tuners for modifications beyond the ones mentioned, and we're not on here to discredit those companies or anyone else.

There have been several questions asked about our software, tunes, and what we do. We don't offer custom tuning software. Again, that is a feature that is offered by other products, such as Cobb. We develop our own proprietary software in house to tune these vehicles. The programmer hardware and software is also developed in house as well. Our product is simple to use, and designed for the end user who has no tuning experience to be able to program their car.

I won't get into quoting AFR numbers or detailed info on what tables we tuned, etc. We're not in business to give away our secrets! There is enough information in my origional post to give you an idea of what went into the tuning of these vehicles. I can assure you that the AFR's are safe, and that the power gains we make are as advertised, and within the limits of a stock vehicle.

Some may see us as a big "marketing company". In fact, all we do is performance tuning. We don't make or sell any other products. Our company is not a division of some other company. We've been in business for 25 years, since 1985, doing the same thing. Our livelihood comes strictly from selling performance tuning products that we can stand behind.

Thanks again for your questions and comments.

Chris

 

[FORZDA 1]

Thanks for all the posts and questions. I want to apologize for taking so long to reply. It's been a crazy week here already!

.........Thanks again for your questions and comments.

Chris

Thanks Chris. A very reasonable reply and explanation of the goals with your tuning product for the car. It all makes more sense now. The only thing I would recommend is that you include much of your goals explanation on the web site and remove the "The Most Powerful Tuning You Can Buy" verbiage as it is patently false. I'll just let it go at that.

Good luck on getting the CARB EO!

 

[Blendercloud]

So that it is not mistaken or misunderstood...

The parts regarding warranty are essentially hogwash. While I'm not calling Hypertech or Chris out on this, the consumer should know that based upon Mazda's warranty, both on paper and in practice, if you roll up to a dealership with your car tuned with any device expecting to file a claim they are going to laugh at you.

Your phrase "Our tuning will not void your factory warranty, or cause damage to any factory engine, drivetrain, or emission component covered under your factory warranty" is not true. If the consumer is being completely honest with their service manager and not committing fraudulent warranty claims by removing the tune prior to service, the reflash will definitely void their warranty for applying more power than was intended by the OEM.

Additionally, the phrase "work within the limits of the vehicle as designed by the OEM" could be combed over indefinitely. Essentially, if your device alters any sort of ignition timing, boost tables, rev limiters, wastegate actuation, (etc) you're working outside of the OEM design limits and your above statement is fallacious.

Again, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls here. Just trying to be truthful. However, I must make clear that those kinds of statements are both unfounded and unwelcome. While I don't think you meant to mislead us (or at least hope that you didn't mean to) with those statements, I have to ensure that the information you post here is both honest and realistic.

This community is very welcome to the idea of having Hypertech both as a product developer and as a sponsor. I do hope that you will choose your statements more carefully in the future.

Blendercloud

 

[FORZDA 1]

I would like to applaud Forzda1 for his efforts to get some answers regarding the hypertech tuners. I am still rather taken aback at the unwillingness to post afrs. Its a simple request, but I would guess the answer is also simple.

Thanks!

Yeah, I expect that Chris is simply the marketing employee and essentially reading from a script. He states that the tuner doesn't record any PID data, so we can assume the beta testers had no idea what really happened to their car, only subjective responses to perceptions, which is a marketer's bread and butter. We already have ots data recorders like the Dashawk and others along the same concept to view and record anything we want. I recommend you guys who want to try this tuner should also invest in a data moniotoring/recording device. With data logs, several of us can help diagnose any problems you're having.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Thanks for all the posts and questions. I want to apologize for taking so long to reply. It's been a crazy week here already!......................Thanks again for your questions and comments.
Chris

Hey Chris! I have some more generic questions so you don't give away any "secrets"! lol

1) What is your return policy? If I buy one of your tuners and are "unhappy" with it can I return it for a full refund? If so, how long can I run it before the return? I really would like to try it out, but I don't want to be stuck if I don't like it.

2) You stated the devices don't record any data so, during all those dyno runs did you vary the throttle position and load to simulate on-road conditions to ensure there were no ill efffects such as timing knock retard, lean or rich AFRs anywhere from idle to redline?

3) Have you contacted Mazda North American Operations (MNAO) for their position on warranty and vehicle modifications? As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the Mazda DISI Turbo engine isn't really comparable to the Detroit Big 3 engines you guys are accustomed to tuning.

4) As Blendercloud pointed out, when a Mazda dealer denies an engine performance related warranty claim and cites your tuning device as the culprit, will you take care of the warranty claim?

All said, I do applaud you for attempting to provide some support products for the Mazdaspeed platforms. Just be aware they are not "mainstream" (Yet!)and as more of a niche market, sometimes bordering on a "cult"(!), there are enthusiasts already participating that are quite skilled and aren't kind to perceived poseurs.

 

[tunersteve]

The question that I have is simple; if the unit isn't end-user programmable, and the maps are updated from you, what's the big deal in discussing the tables modified? Seems to me like you've got yourselves protected by that, and companies like Cobb and CP-e leave it open for people to figure out for themselves without much hassle.

I guess, why all the secrecy for something that can't be hurt?

Aside from that, what are the gains stock vs. stock on the MS3 and MS6?

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Thanks Chris. A very reasonable reply and explanation of the goals with your tuning product for the car. It all makes more sense now. The only thing I would recommend is that you include much of your goals explanation on the web site and remove the "The Most Powerful Tuning You Can Buy" verbiage as it is patently false. I'll just let it go at that.

Good luck on getting the CARB EO!

FORZDA 1,

I totally agree that we need to add some explanation to our website. That is the main reason I am here on the forum answering questions. When we launched the Sport programmer line, we were in the final stages of designing our new website. We launched the Sport part of the website, which was the new design, at the same time we launched the product at SEMA. We launched the new website on January 13th, which is a huge improvement over what we had before, but it is still a work in progress. We tend to pay more attention to the enginering and product development parts of the business, and sometimes the marketing side lacks a bit. We will eventually have a lot more detailed information about our tuning on the website.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

So that it is not mistaken or misunderstood...

The parts regarding warranty are essentially hogwash. While I'm not calling Hypertech or Chris out on this, the consumer should know that based upon Mazda's warranty, both on paper and in practice, if you roll up to a dealership with your car tuned with any device expecting to file a claim they are going to laugh at you.

Your phrase "Our tuning will not void your factory warranty, or cause damage to any factory engine, drivetrain, or emission component covered under your factory warranty" is not true. If the consumer is being completely honest with their service manager and not committing fraudulent warranty claims by removing the tune prior to service, the reflash will definitely void their warranty for applying more power than was intended by the OEM.

Additionally, the phrase "work within the limits of the vehicle as designed by the OEM" could be combed over indefinitely. Essentially, if your device alters any sort of ignition timing, boost tables, rev limiters, wastegate actuation, (etc) you're working outside of the OEM design limits and your above statement is fallacious.

Again, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls here. Just trying to be truthful. However, I must make clear that those kinds of statements are both unfounded and unwelcome. While I don't think you meant to mislead us (or at least hope that you didn't mean to) with those statements, I have to ensure that the information you post here is both honest and realistic.

This community is very welcome to the idea of having Hypertech both as a product developer and as a sponsor. I do hope that you will choose your statements more carefully in the future.

Blendercloud

Blendercloud,

Don't worry, I'm wearing a cup! I appreciate the comments, and take them as intended. It's all good!

I can assure you that the information I am posting is both honest and realistic. We don't make this claim lightly. This is a serious issue that anyone with a vehicle under warranty has to deal with.

Your phrase "Our tuning will not void your factory warranty, or cause damage to any factory engine, drivetrain, or emission component covered under your factory warranty" is not true.

There are federal laws that protect consumers from OEM's denying warranty claims simply because an aftermarket part has been installed. The law says that the OEM must prove that the aftermarket part caused the problem, before they can deny warranty. This is in the Magnason-Moss act. Now, do dealerships deny warranties automatically? Yes they do. It happens. There are obvious modifications that can void a factory warranty. We've delt with these issues with the OEMs for years. It's not just tuning products either. A dealership can attempt to void your warranty for installing a cat back exhaust system, yet the part doesn't interfere with any emission systems, and won't cause any engine or drivetrain component failure.

Additionally, the phrase "work within the limits of the vehicle as designed by the OEM" could be combed over indefinitely. Essentially, if your device alters any sort of ignition timing, boost tables, rev limiters, wastegate actuation, (etc) you're working outside of the OEM design limits and your above statement is fallacious.

Altering the engine tuning parameters itself is not working outside the OEM design parameters. The thing you have to understand is that the OEM's don't even get this right the first time out. That is one reason there are so many different calibrations for the same vehicle. For example, changing ignition timing itself doesn't work outside OE limits. But changing ignition timing too far to where it causes detonation, or causes increases in emission levels IS outside the OE limits. We are very careful to keep our changes within the limitations of the mechanical and emission limits of the engine and drivetrain. We could make more power in most every vehicle we tune than what we release for sale, but we keep

We've been doing this for years, for all types of vehicles; naturally aspriated, turbocharged, supercharged, and diesels, so this isn't something new to us.

Chris

 

[Blendercloud]

Chris,

While I appreciate the response, I cannot let you make the claim on this forum that your product will not void the factory warranty unless you receive a certification from Mazda/Mazda North America guaranteeing this is the case.

I'm very familiar with the Magnason-Moss Act and what it takes to carry out such a battle against a major OEM. I also understand that the M-M Act in practice has very little bearing on the day to day operations of Mazda as an OEM and service administrator. The avenues required to prove such a claim via the M-M Act are very expensive, difficult, and drawn out. To say that your product will not alter a customer's warranty, or implicitly, that your product will not have an effect on the OEM's willingness to honor that warranty is false.

I don't doubt your experience list. However, as stated above, I cannot allow you to make statements regarding OEM warranty validity without the certification of Mazda/Mazda North America.

I appreciate your cooperation. We look forward to learning more about this product.

Thank you,
Blendercloud

 

[AequitasVeritas]

If you are worried about warranty and having the hypertech, you can remove the programming before you take it in. Hypertech actually recommends this anyways due to the fact that the diagnostic tools dealerships use won't recognize the software. It only takes about 5 minutes to remove the program. I've done it twice when i went in to have an axle and a tie rod replaced on 2 separate occasions.

 

[Blendercloud]

If you are worried about warranty and having the hypertech, you can remove the programming before you take it in. Hypertech actually recommends this anyways due to the fact that the diagnostic tools dealerships use won't recognize the software. It only takes about 5 minutes to remove the program. I've done it twice when i went in to have an axle and a tie rod replaced on 2 separate occasions.

Yes, I understand that is possible. It's possible with any reflash device. The point is that Hypertech is making the claim that the reflash software will not void your warranty. By removing the software in order to make a warranty claim, you are actually committing a fraudulent act. Does it happen? Yes, I'm sure it does. Should that be a basis of how you market your product? Absolutely not.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Chris,

While I appreciate the response, I cannot let you make the claim on this forum that your product will not void the factory warranty unless you receive a certification from Mazda/Mazda North America guaranteeing this is the case.

I'm very familiar with the Magnason-Moss Act and what it takes to carry out such a battle against a major OEM. I also understand that the M-M Act in practice has very little bearing on the day to day operations of Mazda as an OEM and service administrator. The avenues required to prove such a claim via the M-M Act are very expensive, difficult, and drawn out. To say that your product will not alter a customer's warranty, or implicitly, that your product will not have an effect on the OEM's willingness to honor that warranty is false.

I don't doubt your experience list. However, as stated above, I cannot allow you to make statements regarding OEM warranty validity without the certification of Mazda/Mazda North America.

I appreciate your cooperation. We look forward to learning more about this product.

Thank you,
Blendercloud

I appreciate your response, and respect your request pertaining to statements about warranty issues.

I'll stand by my previous statements, but I will refrain from any further omments regarding OEM warranty issues.

 

[GoFast]

The problem Chris, with your statements is that you are quoting a ridiculously over stated and under utilized "law".

The general public and membership can't afford to take on the manufacturer's team of lawyers nor are many willing to even attempt it. Granted in the event that you win, Mazda will pay but, if you lose, you're in a world of hurt and a financial crisis.

It's not really hard to "prove" that a tuning option, such as yours, could have caused a slough of problems from broken axles, a blown turbo, blown engine, ecu failure, etc....

My point is that it is easy to site the magnuson moss act as a marketing pitch but it is much harder in reality to utilize it. So, until you are guaranteeing the consumer that your organization will completely back the customer including financial backing, lawyers, and any other risk associated with taking a large corporation like Mazda to court, you shouldn't guarantee that your product won't void a factory warranty.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

1) What is your return policy? If I buy one of your tuners and are "unhappy" with it can I return it for a full refund? If so, how long can I run it before the return? I really would like to try it out, but I don't want to be stuck if I don't like it.

We have a 30 day money back guarantee. As long as you program your vehicle back to stock, we will take it back from any of our dealers.

2) You stated the devices don't record any data so, during all those dyno runs did you vary the throttle position and load to simulate on-road conditions to ensure there were no ill efffects such as timing knock retard, lean or rich AFRs anywhere from idle to redline?

Yes, we did this on the dyno, and under normal driving conditions. We use AWD chassis dynos for tuning. Our dynos are capable of simulating real world load conditions, including aerodynamic drag (wind resistance). But we don't just stop there. We actually test our tunes in real world driving conditions. We use our own in-house developed software to monitor and data log while driving the vehicle in real world conditions, so we can validate what we see on the dyno.

3) Have you contacted Mazda North American Operations (MNAO) for their position on warranty and vehicle modifications? As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the Mazda DISI Turbo engine isn't really comparable to the Detroit Big 3 engines you guys are accustomed to tuning.

No, we have not contacted Mazda directly for their warranty position. I can elaborate on this further, but I will refrain from further discussing OEM warranty issues per the moderator's request.

I understand where you are coming from about the Big 3 engines. All I can tell you is that the technology from the OEM's, all of them, not just the Big 3, has changed dramatically over the last 10 years; different engine configurations, emission controls, computer systems, safety systems, etc. Engines, drivetrain, and their control systems are evolving faster now than any time in the history of the automobile. We have to learn new stuff every year a new vehicle is introduced. It's not just pushrod V8's that we're tuning anymore. We also tune Nissan engines, we have tuning for the Ford 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 car engines as well. We've also tuned the Duramax, Cummins, and Ford turbo diesels, which are totally different animals. That is part of the reason for making over 1,000 dyno pulls on our test mule, so that we can learn as much as we can about these engines.

4) As Blendercloud pointed out, when a Mazda dealer denies an engine performance related warranty claim and cites your tuning device as the culprit, will you take care of the warranty claim?

We have a process in place to handle these situations when they arise, and they do. This isn't an easy yes or no answer question. I would welcome the opportunity for a more in-depth discussion of OEM warranty issues, with moderator approval. It would probably be more appropriate in a seperate thread.


We do realize we're in a niche market, and our experiences with other vehicle platforms are similar, so we're prepared for it!

Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Here is the product manual. After all the "hype" and vague responses from Chris, it boils down to look like a fairly reasonable product for those folks that have no knowledge of, nor a desire to learn, the details on tuning their car, yet have money to spend and a desire to change something. I'm quite sure there are MANY more people like that in the marketplace than die-hard gearheads. It has a basic canned tune with a couple of user-selectable parameters. I think it is a bit overpriced for what you really get, but that's just me. It will NEVER replace even a basic piggyback tuner for the true hotrodder.

There are people who payed ~$300 for the Sprint Booster which simply changed the TPS output so that it would hit 100% output at only 1/4 throttle or so to make their car "feel" like it had more low-end power that the masses love so much. All subjective, targeted marketing, so... No biggy, it's your money, enjoy!

 

[Blendercloud]

You have my permission to discuss and clarify the warranty implications. However, please refrain from making any promises or claims without ample certification. I want this product to work because I want our community to have another option. I just hope you understand why I've taken such a hard line on this.

 

[AddiktedtoBoost]

09 ecu

Chris, I have a question for you. I see that this says it is for all first gen ms3's, but did you guys account for the fact that the 09 ms3 has significantly different ecu programming? I think the tables are all the same but they are all jumbled up and in different places or something like that. I just want to make sure because I am considering getting one of these things and while it seems you guys did a bunch of homework, I didn't see this mentioned anywhere.

Thanks