Constantly running 10:1 AFR, No closed loop operation, low vac at idle

[keegan0103]

Hey guys, I just bought a 2003 MSP with about 89k on it. Since then ive done my share of searching and whatnot for the small problems that the car has in regards to drivability.

Mods: Poorly innstalled 2channel j&s safeguard
Custom fmic with hardpipes and VTA hks ssqv
blitz electronic boost controller
injen CAI
Divided 3 inch downpipe
3 inch full catless exhaust (no o2 spacer)

Heres the issue(s)

When you first start the car, it requires a occasional blip of the throttle to not die. When it finally allows itself to idle, it sounds like it has a VERY agressive set of cams. pulle maybe 10 inches of vacuum.
Once warmed up, car idles at ~12-14 inches of vac, no more camming
However engine braking pulls 20 inches of vac


Ive checked for vac leaks by spraying vac lines and/or capping off lines. NO changes

the knockguard was missing the o2 clamp, and the gauge never worked. Sorted out all the wiring (used the o2 clamp option) and was upset to see that once the rear 02 (which feeds the gauge) once warmed up, would read totally rich any time the gas was pressed. Car never goes into closed loop operation.

Light throttle in vac it drives fine, but once you begin the transistion into boost under light or medium throttle the car feels like its pulling LOTS of timing, almost to the point where it wants to start sputtering, while AFR gauge is pegged rich/

When at wot, power delivery is random and sporatic all throughout the rev range, and will actively gain and loose power while my foots in the floor

Codes for front 02 no signal
random misfire (due to idle)

 

[Cleverfrog]

check your intake manifold bolts and throttle body bolts and gaskets. Make sure they're tight. Also check IAC on the throttle body.

 

[Cleverfrog]

Also, where is your MAF located?

 

[keegan0103]

My maf is n the stock location, and I dont bellieve my ecu is flashed (I see no stickers).

The IAC seems to be hissing rather

I sprayed the gasket areas with brake cleaner, no change in idle

 

[Cleverfrog]

My maf is n the stock location, and I dont bellieve my ecu is flashed (I see no stickers).

The IAC seems to be hissing rather

I sprayed the gasket areas with brake cleaner, no change in idle

You should relocate your MAF to the cold pipe. 6 inches away from the throttle body. Hissing = leak

 

[Spiced MSP]

yay, another tx member!! Welcome. and you didn't mention if the car had any type of EMS to tune with. I would think it did since there is a J&S in there.

 

[keegan0103]

I would think so too, but it would be right in there by the ecu id assume, and there isnt anything down there besides the J&S

 

[Spiced MSP]

the car may have had an EMS at one point. Previous owner could have removed it. The rich condition could be the stock tune which isn't surprising

 

[Cleverfrog]

the car may have had an EMS at one point. Previous owner could have removed it. The rich condition could be the stock tune which isn't surprising

this

 

[shane02pro5]

Or they have 440's on stock ecu?? what colors are the injectors??

^What I was thinking... a J&S is a priceless piece of equipment to have! I don't believe many ran the 02 clamp that I can recall. john@j&s.com will repond if you email him (awesome guy). I would think maybe they didn't have ems and were using this as a temporary solution to running more boost??

 

[keegan0103]

I will say while reinstalling the J&S The front and rear 02 wiring shows signs of being dicked with. There were small extension wires spliced in, as if someone cut them to add in stuff, and reverted it to stock before selling.

I have a pinout of the ecu, and in a bit ill go out and list every tampered wire, and maybe you can tell me what may have been installed

 

[keegan0103]

Well I put in a new front o2 sensor, and the driveability did improve, as well as gas mileage. Im going to remove the o2 clamp after work and see what happens. Got a new ac line so for once I wont kill myself in these texas summers!

Still having a bit of hesitation in mid range throttle (probably cause still mega stock tune rich) but nowhere as agressive as before.

One thing ive noticed now is that the car struggles to idle a lot more. Now that the car has ac finally, I can see when I kick on the compressor, the car cant idle due to the load. Which leads me to the IACV as the culprit at this point.

Or I have baller agressive cams.

Rough idle also led to me throwing a p0300 random multiple cylinder misfire

I personally blocked off the EGR when I bought it thinking it was a vac leak, but It still idles poorly. However im not throwing a code for that OR my catless downpipe (no spacers are installed either)

 

[boostedmsp]

Sounds like mine. Probably the stock tune.

 

[jdwk]

The stock tune doesn't go rich until 4200rpms and above 75% throttle. Other than that, it will happily bounce around 14.7 all day long in closed loop.

So the J&S has an O2 clamp? I assume this is so the car will add fuel when in closed loop and the J&S detects knock?

Did the "no O2 signal" CEL go away with the new O2?

I would remove the J&S completely and get it back to as stock as possible so you have somewhere to start. I really doubt the previous owner took out an EMS to sell and then left in larger injectors, but who knows. It doesn't make sense to leave the J&S in there either.

Buy a recirculation valve for the HKS, since it will run like crap unless the MAF is relocated. Maybe it already is.

Some detailed pics of the engine bay would definitely help us debug.

 

[keegan0103]

According to the wiring diagram/manual for the Safeguard, the o2 clamp goes from the safeguard and tees into the factory front 02 signal wire. Once the car goes above 5 inches in clamps the 02 voltage to .5v (which if i remember is roughly 14.7 afrs)

Pictures incoming for the engine bay and other stuff

 

[keegan0103]

It appears to be close to stock,which is why I bought it, but Ive noticedsome numbers on the block so maybe this motor isnt the original??

 

[jdwk]

Well, I definitely see a vent to atmosphere BOV and a stock located MAF, but that shouldn't really affect your idle. It's just going to waste a lot of gas and make nice puffs of black smoke or loud pops when you come out of boost.

I can't see what was done to the recirculation pipe on the Injen. May have just been capped off. You should get the recirc fitting for the HKS and run it into the pipe on the Injen. The recirc fitting is annoyingly expensive, but you can sometimes find them for under $20.

You are missing your strut tower bar. See if you can find one from a part out or there are a couple aftermarket options that aren't too expensive.

Cams aren't really all that common for the MSP. I would be surprised if that was the problem with the idle. I would get that engine cover off though and make sure the injectors are stock.

Try to get all the wiring back to stock as possible, recirc the BOV and reset the PCM (just unplug it). The stock PCM is actually very random in its power delivery straight from the factory. It just depends on where in the closed loop cycle the car is when you step on the throttle and when it transitions to open loop.

It is odd that the owner left in the J&S and the EBC, but took out or never had a piggyback. You might want to search for a used SSAFC, but it needs to be built specifically for the MSP.

 

[jdwk]

According to the wiring diagram/manual for the Safeguard, the o2 clamp goes from the safeguard and tees into the factory front 02 signal wire. Once the car goes above 5 inches in clamps the 02 voltage to .5v (which if i remember is roughly 14.7 afrs)

Pictures incoming for the engine bay and other stuff

Clamping the voltage to .5V is pointless in the MSP. The MSP's PCM only sees rich or lean, it is completely binary. A narrowband O2 will deliver .5V around stoich, the MSP never reads it as stoich. If you give it .5V, the PCM will most likely see it as rich and pull fuel.

I tried every possible voltage, plus offsetting and square waves from my FIC to get the car to not pull or add fuel, but it always does one or the other in closed loop.