Talk me out of it...

[8.5MS3]

Well the speed 3 loves to explode, and really makes it difficult to make any real amount of power.

current record for stock block ms3 - 390whp/350wtq
current record for stock block ms6 - 449awhp/527awtq

no extra fueling, no nitrous, just BT and bolt ons

the "unable to make power" myths have been dispelled for quite some time

 

[Kooldino]

current record for stock block ms3 - 390whp/350wtq
current record for stock block ms6 - 449awhp/527awtq

no extra fueling, no nitrous, just BT and bolt ons

That's great, but I'm sure there's more to that story. I sincerely doubt they're running on pump gas. On top of that, how long does a stock engine last at that power? Considering I've seen several near-stock ms3 engines and turbos pop, I'd reckon one with twice stock power wouldn't last very long.

And yet again, they're still only putting out around what the 5.0 does in stock form with no mods.

the "unable to make power" myths have been dispelled for quite some time

Don't misquote me. I said it's difficult, not that it's unable. Making 390whp on a speed 3 is a costly proposition at minimum. Assuming you get everything running correctly, you're still in a very risky situation.

There's a reason that I sell so many Speed 3 pistons (just sold two sets in the past hour) - the engines are weak.

 

[8.5MS3]

That's great, but I'm sure there's more to that story. I sincerely doubt they're running on pump gas. On top of that, how long does a stock engine last at that power? Considering I've seen several near-stock ms3 engines and turbos pop, I'd reckon one with twice stock power wouldn't last very long.

And yet again, they're still only putting out around what the 5.0 does in stock form with no mods.



Don't misquote me. I said it's difficult, not that it's unable. Making 390whp on a speed 3 is a costly proposition at minimum. Assuming you get everything running correctly, you're still in a very risky situation.

There's a reason that I sell so many Speed 3 pistons (just sold two sets in the past hour) - the engines are weak.

Both cars are running pump gas w/ meth injection. The limiting factor for power in these cars was never the motor itself, but the ECU. bad tuning in the beginning is what started all of this "rods are weak" talk. The ms3 i listed has been running around for almost a year with his current tune on the AP, and the MS6 for about a month now on the SB, and he is purposely pushing the stock motor to the point of failure just to see what happens. the ms3 has a 3076, and the ms6 has a 3071.

Comparing a 2.3L to a 5.0 is an invalid arguement. With twice the displacement it should be a helluva lot easier to make more power. making almost 200whp/liter is a feat in and of itself. Lets see if the 5.0 can hit 1000whp on the stock bottom end...

you really should jump to the "other" forums (they have a msp section now )

MS3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Ec09Cs-WI
MS6 - YouTube - cammed roush.MPG

 

[Kooldino]

Both cars are running pump gas w/ meth injection.

Same idea - you have to really raise the octane level to get that kind of power out of it.

The limiting factor for power in these cars was never the motor itself,

In reality, there are several limiting factors of the speed 3. The motor is just one of them.

but the ECU. bad tuning in the beginning is what started all of this "rods are weak" talk.

bad tuning + weak engine = guaranteed hole in the block.

Stock tune + weak engine = possible hole in the block.

Bottom line, if the engine was more stout, there would be less failed motors.

To top it off, I once witnessed a near stock MS3 jump timing for no reason AT IDLE and bend all of the valves. Apparently, this is a known issue with the MZR. Fail.

The ms3 i listed has been running around for almost a year with his current tune on the AP, and the MS6 for about a month now on the SB, and he is purposely pushing the stock motor to the point of failure just to see what happens. the ms3 has a 3076, and the ms6 has a 3071.

Comparing a 2.3L to a 5.0 is an invalid arguement.

If you're directly comparing both of the cars, then comparing the engines is not invalid.

With twice the displacement it should be a helluva lot easier to make more power. making almost 200whp/liter is a feat in and of itself. Lets see if the 5.0 can hit 1000whp on the stock bottom end...

So it's not fair to compare a 2.3L to a 5.0L?

Evo motors are 2.0L and they can make 700whp on a stock bottom end. They're easy to mod, and it's easy to make power out of them. The Evo motors are in fact comparable to a 5.0, despite being even smaller than the MZR 2.3.

you really should jump to the "other" forums (they have a msp section now )

Which?

MS3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Ec09Cs-WI
MS6 - YouTube - cammed roush.MPG

I'll check this out tonight.

 

[MazdaSpeeder]

So you don't own a ford, or an MS3 and are giving advice on both?

Lol, almost got me there! I've actually owned two Fords, and I own a Mazda. I've dealt with both dealers, so I think I have some experience in that area, and the numbers for the two cars being considered speak for themselves.

Honestly, it's an apples to oranges comparison. The GT is in a different league than the MS3. Sorry if that hurts feelings, but it's true. If the OP wants it, he should go for it.

 

[8.5MS3]

Agreed, comparing motors wasn't a good point.

This is really the first tuner car to come to the market with direct injection. Conventional tuning practices go out the window. So, naturally some will tune incorrectly and the inevitable blowup will occur.

So what if they are running meth? The motor isn't that week. I don't think anyone has fully exploited the full power potential of the stock bottom end because of all the tuning issues that plagued this platform in its infancy. The motors are proving to be very capable of decent gains, I for one am at 285whp @ 16psi with an intake and tune as my only power modifications. Many people on msf (other forum) are all cruising around at 300+ every day with stock bottom ends.

As I said before the load cap was what prevented us from making big power. Cpe has unlocked that limitation and cobb has just done so recently as well.

Can the bottom end support 700 like an evo, probably not. But 325-350 on stock turbo will soon be the norm, with the new limiting factor being the turbo itself. I'm hoping for 310whp and 340wtq with the cap fix and a testpipe back next week


Remember this is still a 20k econobox. And to be making as much power as some of us are, along with massive area under the curve is awesome.

 

[MSP300]

that's the funniest thing i've read all day. The transmissions and engines on mazdas are their worst attributes (trust me on this). Far worse than what's in the new 5.0.

i was talking about 370z!!!!!!!!
read the thread first!

 

[anm6]

I would do it, Saw one this morning. I hated the old 5. SLOWs and the mid 90's
boady style but have always loved the sound and the 60's style since the brought it
back I have been iching for one I love mu MS3 but the ZOOM BOOM bothers me,
Coming from DSM's where the motor was BP, Crank walk FTL,, Never had it tho.

 

[Kooldino]

Agreed, comparing motors wasn't a good point.

This is really the first tuner car to come to the market with direct injection. Conventional tuning practices go out the window. So, naturally some will tune incorrectly and the inevitable blowup will occur.

Not only that, but the DISI is actually a hinderence since it itself is limiting. How can you make more power if you can't provide more fuel?

So what if they are running meth?

My point is that while 390whp is good power, it's still not great power, and if it requires the end user to run meth, then it's getting a bit extreme. Your average joe doesn't want to have to deal with the hassles and risks associated with meth. Especially when in stock form they can have the same amount of power with a 5.0.

The motor isn't that week. I don't think anyone has fully exploited the full power potential of the stock bottom end because of all the tuning issues that plagued this platform in its infancy. The motors are proving to be very capable of decent gains, I for one am at 285whp @ 16psi with an intake and tune as my only power modifications. Many people on msf (other forum) are all cruising around at 300+ every day with stock bottom ends.

But otoh, I've heard of several guys blowing their motors with nothing but an intake and exhaust. You keep telling me that the engines aren't an issue, but there are countless examples of them being a bit on the weak side. Don't get me wrong, they're not as weak as say...an OEM FS motor, but at the end of the day, engines aren't what mazda does well.

Again, you can argue with me all day, but there's a reason I've sold countless speed3 rod and piston sets and zero evo piston and rod sets to date. All other factors aside, the MZR has issues.

As I said before the load cap was what prevented us from making big power. Cpe has unlocked that limitation and cobb has just done so recently as well.

Good to know.

Can the bottom end support 700 like an evo, probably not. But 325-350 on stock turbo will soon be the norm, with the new limiting factor being the turbo itself.

You mean the turbo that many people have had fail once they installed a downpipe?

I'm hoping for 310whp and 340wtq with the cap fix and a testpipe back next week

Not bad.

Remember this is still a 20k econobox. And to be making as much power as some of us are, along with massive area under the curve is awesome.

We'll see how long the motors hold up.

Regardless, the 5.0 is simply a better motor. The mustang is a higher class of car. A modified 310whp MS3 is going to lose to a stock 5.0 on just about any track.

I don't mean to sound like a sourpuss, it's just that being in the position i'm in has shown me a lot of failures with the MZR. In a car that's not all that old, it's kind of disappointing.

 

[Kooldino]

i was talking about 370z!!!!!!!!
read the thread first!

Gotcha. Yeah, I'd take a Z over a mustang.

 

[8.5MS3]

didnt read any replies in this thread

get the ford. wtf is wrong with you? why is this even a debate?

In case you missed my original stance on this. Never said the MZR was any comparison to the new mustang...

Not only that, but the DISI is actually a hinderence since it itself is limiting. How can you make more power if you can't provide more fuel?

Stock injectors have been proven to have the capability of 500+whp without any modification to the fuel system other than a CDFP upgrade

My point is that while 390whp is good power, it's still not great power, and if it requires the end user to run meth, then it's getting a bit extreme. Your average joe doesn't want to have to deal with the hassles and risks associated with meth. Especially when in stock form they can have the same amount of power with a 5.0.

Nearly every BT car runs meth, either to act as a chemical intercooler or to raise octane as you stated. A good kit like aquamist has several safety systems in place to prevent a mishap should the driver run out for whatever reason

But otoh, I've heard of several guys blowing their motors with nothing but an intake and exhaust. You keep telling me that the engines aren't an issue, but there are countless examples of them being a bit on the weak side. Don't get me wrong, they're not as weak as say...an OEM FS motor, but at the end of the day, engines aren't what mazda does well.

How many other platforms can make the torque we make at the rpm we do? This car has a curve more similar to that of a deisel than gas. A turbo capable of pushing 20psi @ 2100 rpm can bend a rod (i did this with the k04 once). But thats not the car's fault, its the driver whose in too high a gear stressing the engine to hell.

Again, you can argue with me all day, but there's a reason I've sold countless speed3 rod and piston sets and zero evo piston and rod sets to date. All other factors aside, the MZR has issues.

Yes the car has issues, but i share the same opinion with many others. Mazda put a turbo capable of producing good tq down low. Start making the car breathe better, and you get boost spikes, add user error into the mix and there's the majority of the blowups

You mean the turbo that many people have had fail once they installed a downpipe?

The turbo seals are leaking due to a design flaw, the turbo hasnt failed. raise the idle to 900 and viola all smoking goes away

Regardless, the 5.0 is simply a better motor. The mustang is a higher class of car. A modified 310whp MS3 is going to lose to a stock 5.0 on just about any track.

Never said the cars were in the same class

I don't mean to sound like a sourpuss, it's just that being in the position i'm in has shown me a lot of failures with the MZR. In a car that's not all that old, it's kind of disappointing.

I understand. Im just having a discussion. Believe me im not a mazda fanboi. Only reason i have this car is i couldnt afford an evo, sti, etc at the time. That being said, every car has its problems.

To give you and idea about the tq down low. Heres the MS6 dyno vs a big turbo evo. No load down low means less stress. Less stress means less risk of blowing obviously. But which curve is more fun?

MS6

Evo

 

[Kyrosfactor]

I used to have an older Mustang GT before my Speed and I loved it, the growl, pure fun of a V8. I like my speed, but if I could afford a Mustang 5.0, I would do it!

 

[Sinister_MS6]

OP go with whichever car makes you happier. Its that simple... If you get the GT be sure to post some pics



I take some issue with this. My FS exploded on an on ramp @ 1/4 throttle and 1-2 psi of boost. Does this make me an idiot, or does it mean that Mazda put a really lean spot in the stock tune that killed the engine?

Idk you so i can't really give you an definite answer to you're question, because i don't know the setup to your car. but by listening to how much boost you were running. Sound's like a really bad setup. Who really run's 1-2 psi of boost, seriously! Must of been a cheap ebay setup or something? Elaborate more info would help.

But in all seriousness you know what i mean by having an heavy foot and being an idiot. I didn't say everyone, i meant Heavily modded cars in general

Evo motors are 2.0L and they can make 700whp on a stock bottom end. They're easy to mod, and it's easy to make power out of them. The Evo motors are in fact comparable to a 5.0, despite being even smaller than the MZR 2.3.

Wow! I find that hard to believe 700hp. The 2JZ-GTE motors can barely hold 7-800 on stock block before upgrading the bottom end. Only real car's i know that can handle true power on stock bottom ends are the 2JZ-GTE motors and the VG30DE. If i remember correctly the 2JZ was around 7-800 and the VG30DE was around 500hp. I don't get how stock they tolerate 700hp when i remember correctly, AMS had a 2.3L stroker kit GT35R@33psi built and tuned by AMS. Put down 601awhp back in the day. So i don't see how a stock evo can hold 700 when AMS had theirs built up to put down 601awhp. Anyways That AMS Evo is around 900+awhp now.

I understand Evo's and STi's have better mod potential. But to sit here and really compare is irrelevant. When it comes to aftermarket parts Mazda really sucks! We all know Mazda's aren't drag cars, and don't have the aftermarket support to compete or put down the big #'s like the other big dogs do

 

[FrequentFlyer]

I've never been a huge American muscle car fan and the Stang has probably been my least favorite. I think it's just because of the people I used to know with Stangs when I was a teenager growing up in North Jersey. Lots of douche bag "Guidos" with the slicked back hair and 25lb of gold around their knecks, but I have seen some nice Mustangs and they sound awesome. The new 5.0 is tempting, although I could never see myself driving one. I don't know, I'd have to test drive one and maybe it'd change my mind. I've actually never driven a Mustang GT. I've rented a 'vert V6 years ago and it was a slow, POS boat of a car that shouldn't have even been considered a "sports car". I've had nothing but Japanese sports cars (240SX, Miata, S2000, RSX Type S and now the MS3) so it'd be a big change going to a muscle car. I'm not sure what else is out there that I'd buy if I wanted to spend $35-40k on a new car. Of course the aftermarket is HUGE for the Mustang and Ford service departments never seem to mind you modding them. It's almost expected.

The new 5.0 seems to be the cat's meow though and Ford has been making some really nice cars lately. I can't wait until the new Focus comes over here in "SVT" form. That may be my next car if they can give it 250+hp. That said, I defintely don't think trading your MS3 for a new 5.0 is necessarily a bad decision. Even the new V6 Stang is kicking ass.

 

[MSMS3]

Interesting discussions, but when did this thread get jacked? I thought the discussion was whether OP should sell his MS3 for a new 2011 Mustang GT? Nice to see the immediately preceeding post return us to topic.

I was trying to make the point way back there early in the thread that even a lightly modded MS3 with less than $1000 in improvements could actually out accelerate the new GT from 40 mph on up, and offered the proof of that. A good part of the reason is also the favorable weight to power ratio we have.

Somewhere in the discussion this turned into how much horsepower can you make on the MS3's block. While interesting that seems off topic to me and not something that would help OP with his decision.

One of the reasons a lightly modded MS3 can run with the "big dogs" once we get some traction is because we are WAY LIGHTER than those cars. So what if they have 400-420 horses at the crank, if they weigh 600-700 pounds more (sometimes ever greater) than an MS3?

 

[LostViper]

Well...I drove the Mustang on Saturday.

It doesn't take turns as nicely as the Speed, but it's still plenty of fun. And...HOLY CRAP IT'S FAST!

I may get one at some point, but they have 0 deals going on right now. Leasing the car is more expensive than financing, which is ridiculous. Also, the one I would want is about $36,000 and I cannot justify that kind of price for a Mustang right now...I'll probably wait a year or two when they have realistic pricing.

As for now, I'm going to stick with my MS3, add the Mazdaspeed CAI, turbo inlet, and do something with my exhaust.

Thank you for all the input!

 

[MikeHTally]

I'm surprised it's "only" $36K. I would have expected a good bit north of $40K until the novelty wears off a bit. The SRT Challengers are in the $50K range at many dealers and the sticker on those is usually in the mid 40s.

Did you perchance try the V6?

 

[eg6motion]

ouch, that kind of price via financing would mean negative equity for a long time.

 

[Kain]

... until the novelty wears off a bit...

This.

 

[kvndoom]

There are SO many low mileage 4.6GT's on carmax right now. Kinda funny to see all these people dumping their new car just to get another new car.