bank 1 too rich

[thecrash91]

i get bank 1 too rich, average afr no boost is 14.5-15.5, when i go WOT it goes down to 17 then shoots back to ~12 where it supposed to be, got CEL for O2 bank 1 too rich. should i just replace the o2 sensor? previous owner said he did it like 6 months ago with OEM. or could it be something else causing this? previously before this when i would go WOT it would overboost to 15 psi and afrs would go to 10. p.s. i dont go WOT anymore until i get this fixed, im not that stupid(shrug)

 

[gtrs28]

try to check your injectors

 

[thecrash91]

if there rich i dont think itd be injectors. id think lean would be injectors. plus my afrs bounce up and down between 14-16 like a metronome if that means anything to anyone. im going to try replacing o2 sensor and see what happens (hondaeat-r said he replaced it 6months ago but ya never know, it could have been a bad one)

 

[GTRay7]

how are you measuring your afr's? with a true dedicated wideband or just tapping into the factory o2 sensor? a rich condition can be caused by several things. Any time you get into diagnostic work it helps to have as much data as possible. what are your long and short term fuel trims. what is the calculated load seen by the ecu? under what conditions is the rich code triggered? what do the plugs and wires look like? how clean is the air filter?

The o2 sensor is the LAST thing you need to change to find your problem. Of all the parts in the system it is the one that is probably functioning properly.

Ray

 

[thecrash91]

alright well the rich code might be from my boost controller, its goin bad, im spiking from 10 psi to 15 psi on WOT. heres a video i recorded, not good quality but you can see the afr go to 10 when i go WOT, thats because my boost gauge reads 15 psi then when it gets down to 10 psi the afr goes normal to 12.5 average for boost afr. and yes i know my idle is lean, im working on that too, lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiVw0a5n0A8

 

[thecrash91]

and yes that is wheel chirp in 1st gear =] (going uphill too)

 

[GTRay7]

just noticed the mods in your sig. did you tune the car or did you buy it that way? the 10:1 afr at 15psi is the result of someone tuning a safety net with your ssafc. it is going that rich to keep you from leaning out and detonating. i believe the rich code is a result of readings taken in closed loop operation by the factory o2 sensor/ecu. the rich code may also be a result of the factory ecu not being able to reach a target afr as it tries to lean out the mixture but your larger injectors, ssafc, and compression ratio are working to make that difficult for the ecu. find someone with a scanner that can read your long and short term fuel trims.

i would also tend to think your boost control problems are wastegate issues, not boost control issues.

Ray

 

[thecrash91]

how can i test if its wastegate or boost controler? also you dont think it could be because pretty much everytime i go into boost it shoots up to 15 psi and goes to 10 afr? i mean, thats really rich. and i go to boost (not necesserally WOT) almost everytime, it goes to 15 psi when i go WOT, not if i do it slowly. and it doesnt overboost when i go easy on it, thus it stays at 12 minumum for afrs. and id think its boost controller and not wastegate, since the stock wastegate is only meant for 6.5 psi and the boost controller is what makes the car able to go to 10 becasue the boost goes through the boost controller before the wastegate, if it was the other way around i wouldnt be able to boost past 6.5

 

[GTRay7]

how can i test if its wastegate or boost controler? also you dont think it could be because pretty much everytime i go into boost it shoots up to 15 psi and goes to 10 afr? i mean, thats really rich. and i go to boost (not necesserally WOT) almost everytime, it goes to 15 psi when i go WOT, not if i do it slowly. and it doesnt overboost when i go easy on it, thus it stays at 12 minumum for afrs. and id think its boost controller and not wastegate, since the stock wastegate is only meant for 6.5 psi and the boost controller is what makes the car able to go to 10 becasue the boost goes through the boost controller before the wastegate, if it was the other way around i wouldnt be able to boost past 6.5

"boost" builds for a number of reasons. in this case i believe it is building because your wastegate can't keep up with the airflow being generated on the exhaust side. the wastegate controls the flow of exhaust gas that is allowed to BYPASS the turbine side of the turbo. if the flow gets too high - such as with WOT and the wastegate isn't large enough then it will be forced through the turbine. when it goes through the turbine it causes a spike in pressure.

Any easy way to test this is to bypass the boost controller. revert boost control to stock. if it still spikes then you have a wastegate issue. if it stays solid at 6.5 then you can try a known good boost controller.

All your boost controller does is modulate the pressure signal that opens and closes your wastegate. If your wastegate can only flow a specific volume of air and your motor and compressor are capable of overflowing that specific volume then it WILL spike the boost.

A common mod with internally wastegated turbos is to bore the wastegate opening out so that it is large enough to fit an exhaust valve head welded to the arm - very common with FC RX7 guys. I think we used to use exhaust valves from 22r toyota motors.

The rich condition only seems to exist when you spike to 15lbs... this is a good thing. your system is not designed to operate at 15lbs and make a ton of power. whoever tuned your system knew this and programmed a TON of fuel to get dumped when your boost spikes like that. this is a common thing for tuners to do in order to build in safety margins and keep people from blowing up their motors.

I can almost guaranty that if you check the whole system you will find that your wastegate (if it's still stock) isn't nearly capable of flowing enough air to acurately control your boost levels at WOT.

Ray

 

[pimpmeup]

try to check your injectors

yeah that's right. check it out.

 

[GTRay7]

did you tune your ssafc? check the settings under the 15psi load range. i'll bet the injector mS value is through the roof compared to say... 10psi.

just compare the values. post the MAP in here and let us take a look at it

Ray

 

[thecrash91]

compared the numbers, its actually taking fuel out, around 10 psi the numbers are about 9.2 all down the line whereas 15 is 8.6. so the ssafc is actually telling the ecu to give less fuel then stock. which i guess makes sense since these cars stock run really rich. 10 i believe is stock btw. and yeah i dont know why i said before about the wastegate not being possible, im going to try turning the boost controller all the way down to its lowest setting so it will let all the boost through and see what the wastegate does. i might just run stock boost until i get a new mbc if it does turn out to be the boost controller. just to be on the safe side, then ill go to 12 psi (10 is starting to feel slow even though i only had the car 11 days lol) i came from a protege 5, also my first car with over 140 hp and the first fast car ive ever driven lol.

 

[GTRay7]

it's only taking fuel out if the number is negative. I believe what you are seeing are the numbers in ADDITION to stock fuel trims. it's still adding a crap-load of fuel at 15psi but so is the factory fuel map. see the attached diagram for a reference. this diagram is by no means a tuning reference, just a guide to explain how it works.

It's been a few years since i've tuned with an SAFC so forgive me if i'm wrong. I learned a long time ago that stand alone EMS's are the way to go for proper fuel and ignition tuning.

Ray

 

[thecrash91]

ahh i get it now, well im going to turn the boost controller to 1 psi to test if its wastegate or boost controller, even though its internal wastegate (stock turbo) its replaceable correct? if its wastegate not functioning properly like if the spring is getting stuck or something i might just replace it with a cheap one since i have a boost controller and wastegate doesnt really matter unless i take the mbc out

 

[Sport23]

it's only taking fuel out if the number is negative. I believe what you are seeing are the numbers in ADDITION to stock fuel trims. it's still adding a crap-load of fuel at 15psi but so is the factory fuel map. see the attached diagram for a reference. this diagram is by no means a tuning reference, just a guide to explain how it works.

It's been a few years since i've tuned with an SAFC so forgive me if i'm wrong. I learned a long time ago that stand alone EMS's are the way to go for proper fuel and ignition tuning.

Ray

I don't think that is correct. A setting of 10 on the SSAFC should indicate and unmodified signal i.e. the split second is doing nothing. You can adjust your tune to me more lean or more rich than stock with the split second.

 

[GTRay7]

i'm not familiar with the tuning interface of the split second unit, most of my piggyback work has been with the apexi safc and greddy e-manage units. my understanding was that the piggy back systems all used the outputs from the factory ecu and modified the signals to the injectors.

this is why i prefer to work with standalones. they just do the job better.

If what you are saying is correct then what he needs is to have it tuned properly after he sorts out the wastegate issue.

Ray

 

[GTRay7]

ahh i get it now, well im going to turn the boost controller to 1 psi to test if its wastegate or boost controller, even though its internal wastegate (stock turbo) its replaceable correct? if its wastegate not functioning properly like if the spring is getting stuck or something i might just replace it with a cheap one since i have a boost controller and wastegate doesnt really matter unless i take the mbc out

the wastegate still absolutley matters. in this application your wastegate is not replaceable. if you want to modify your wastegate you need to remove the turbine housing and physically grind a larger opening. I used to do this on FC rx-7's and replace the head on the wastegate arm with an exhaust valve. you also have to modify the downpipe to allow extra room for the wastegate arm to travel. Don't expect the boost controller to restrict boost to 1 psi. unless you had a wastegate that can allow all of the exhaust to bypass the turbine this can't be achieved. if you see a significant change to the boost level call it a win and replace the controller, otherwise start looking into better wastegate alternatives.


Ray

 

[thecrash91]

found the culprit, turned the boost controller all the way down (as far as it could go without falling apart) and im boosting a perfect 6.5. it also got rid of my cel of the bank being too rich, so the cel was from overboosting and the overboosting was from the boost controller, sweet, i was thinking of getting the forge unos boost controller, i see it going for 50-75 brand new, what do you guys think? forge any good?

 

[GTRay7]

found the culprit, turned the boost controller all the way down (as far as it could go without falling apart) and im boosting a perfect 6.5. it also got rid of my cel of the bank being too rich, so the cel was from overboosting and the overboosting was from the boost controller, sweet, i was thinking of getting the forge unos boost controller, i see it going for 50-75 brand new, what do you guys think? forge any good?

get yourself a quality electronic boost controller. if you can't swing a new one ebay is your friend.

Ray

 

[thecrash91]

CEL came back on, im kinda pissed. not sure if its the same code since it happened like an hour ago, but it most likely is. its not even like i ever get any afr lower then 10.5, stock afrs are all around 10. what else could it be?! im going crazy.