cobb & cpe software
- Thread starter cpolly69
- Start date
i keep researching the ap vs the sb and the other big question i keep asking myself is where is cobb gonna be with mazdaspeed in a few years - i've seen these articles on forums talking about moving away from ms community b/c people the cars are just too unstable/unpredictable and i also see that hey have quit making the fmic for the car now too -
after more and more questions i keep asking - i am now starting to think the ap might be better for some things like timing control b/c it flashes the chips and the ecu won't keep trying to correct it- while the sb might be better at other things like boost control or getting target afr by tricking the maf - kinda wish i had the dough to buy both - but i don't
after more and more questions i keep asking - i am now starting to think the ap might be better for some things like timing control b/c it flashes the chips and the ecu won't keep trying to correct it- while the sb might be better at other things like boost control or getting target afr by tricking the maf - kinda wish i had the dough to buy both - but i don't
Thats another reason I bought the SB because cobb said on the other forum that the mazdaspeed are unpredictable,unstable and they stop making stuff so what that tells you?That was a good reason to go with the SB.
Cobb will never do away with the AP. It's their biggest seller. Cobb deals with many cars where CPE deals with just Mazda's. Cobb will not be dropping the AP and they have made that very clear. The AP is big for them in both Mazda and Subie's (among others).
The SB is a good product as well. I simply don't see the reason to purchase one now with the ATR available for the AP. Before that SB was the only option if you wanted a custom tune. Now that is not the case.
I would go with what your Gut tells you. Ether way you can't loose because you can always sell what you buy and get the other one. Find the one you want for the cheapest price (even used) that way when you sell it you can get your money back out of it.
However, if money is an issue. The SB will cost you 2 times what the AP costs and you will have to ship your ECU to CPE to get the flashes which is another huge risk and downtime of a few days. Of course this is if you want ALL the features. You will at least want the Full Throttle Flash, Cold Cut Fix and Plug and Play as without them what is the point of getting a SB.
Speed3Rookie
Member
That's the best advise you could have given him.
It's obvious that many ppl have different opinions about the tuning solutions for this car.
This dead horse has been beaten to death more times than most care to remember.
Just do a search and read up on the different theories and go with what you are comfortable with. You can't go worng with either.
btw from what i understand if you go cpe you don't ever need the "cold cut" (really fuel cut) flash if you tune correctly as long as you are running a better fuel pump
people have beat this to death but there's new info. out there now b/c of the new access tuner race software -
people have beat this to death but there's new info. out there now b/c of the new access tuner race software -
Speed3Rookie
Member
This is true. However, there is a wealth of knowledge concerning what the cpe sb and the Cobb ap can/will do perspectively.
Why don't you check those respective sites and get your info from the folks that run each system.
There are dedicated sub forums for the sb where you can get all the info on what the sb offers and there is on for the ap and ATR.
Good luck!
CPE makes a Cold Cut Fix for a reason friend else why make it. The Cold Cut Fix and Fuel Cut are two different things. The Cold Cut is due to IAT issues in cold weather and how the car handles that. It has NOTHING to do with fuel or your FP.
You do NOT need an upgraded fuel pump until your mods demand it. That is simply a urban legend. If your FP dips below 1300PSI when WOT then you can start looking at one. Until then it is a 100% waste of money. With my mods listed I just started to have FP issues. I dipped to 1300PSI ONE time in a log and One Time only. However, I was getting a custom tune at the time so I figured it would just get worse and got internals. Once you get all your mods installed, monitor your Fuel Pressure and see where it is at. Unless you are running a hot tune you should be just fine. Your only issue will be boost creep due to not having a Cat in your DP.
Everyone always jumps at a FP being needed on our cars and that is just flat out false unless you have the mods. That was an urban legend which started over a year ago when those pushing the limits first hit the Cold Cut issue and could not explain why they got cut. So they blamed the FP which was FALSE. Simply monitor your FP and keep logs. Check to ensure you don't have a boost leak or something else before you blame the FP.
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^^
Yah, everyone's been beating the fuel cut & needing a fuel pump upgrade to death for a while now. I'm pretty confident that a good 95% of the people who went out and got a FP upgrade didn't even really need one. But it doesn't mean it's not a good upgrade, just extra insurance I guess but my philosophy has always been "if you don't need it, don't spend the money on it."
What a lot of people are STILL doing though is running into BOOST CUT. I also believe that the COLD CUT is in a way boost cut related. There is a factory safety limit built into the ECU in the form of boost cut. Once boost hits that threshold, you hit the proverbial wall and well....everyone goes out and wastes their money on a FP.
I'm not certain what the cold cut fix entails but I gather it may just remove that boost cut from the ECU altogether. While it may seem all fine & dandy because you no longer hit that wall, it is a safety measure built in FOR A REASON.
Yah, everyone's been beating the fuel cut & needing a fuel pump upgrade to death for a while now. I'm pretty confident that a good 95% of the people who went out and got a FP upgrade didn't even really need one. But it doesn't mean it's not a good upgrade, just extra insurance I guess but my philosophy has always been "if you don't need it, don't spend the money on it."
What a lot of people are STILL doing though is running into BOOST CUT. I also believe that the COLD CUT is in a way boost cut related. There is a factory safety limit built into the ECU in the form of boost cut. Once boost hits that threshold, you hit the proverbial wall and well....everyone goes out and wastes their money on a FP.
I'm not certain what the cold cut fix entails but I gather it may just remove that boost cut from the ECU altogether. While it may seem all fine & dandy because you no longer hit that wall, it is a safety measure built in FOR A REASON.
COBB Tuning
Member
Hey guys I just read through this thread and wanted to add in a little insight or at least perspective on the AccessPORT. We feel that the main benefit to the AccessPORT is direct control over all ECU functions. This means that you are directly calibrating your ECU to work with your performance modifications. No other product on the market for Mazdaspeed3/6 can make that claim. With the addition of AccessTUNER Race, the end user can make custom calibrations that best suit their needs and modifications.
In addition to the tuneability of the AccessPORT, it also features datalogging features, live data monitoring, scan tool functions and even has a built-in performance meter that measures 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and a dynomometer function for estimating horsepower.
What's more, there is no need for add-on boxes like a fuel cut defender or other engine saving modules as these functions can be worked into the tune with the AccessPORT.
If you have any more questions please do not hesitate to ask.
Travis
COBB Tuning
In addition to the tuneability of the AccessPORT, it also features datalogging features, live data monitoring, scan tool functions and even has a built-in performance meter that measures 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and a dynomometer function for estimating horsepower.
What's more, there is no need for add-on boxes like a fuel cut defender or other engine saving modules as these functions can be worked into the tune with the AccessPORT.
If you have any more questions please do not hesitate to ask.
Travis
COBB Tuning
i appreciate the response from a cobb person - but i've done a great deal of research now as i'm only new to this forum not to the car or it's aftermarket - and from what i understand there are some misconceptions in this thread about cpe's products - from what i now understand the fuel cut, cold cut, and other flashes besides full control flash were all designed for someone who doesn't want to run the sb and just wants to let the ecu adapt (super ride mode) - if you know how to use the sb and tune with it, all you need is it and the full control flash - none of the other flashes are necessary - i am most likely going to go with the sb as i am already a little familiar with it's software and how the feedback loop system works - even tho i initially said i only wanted to do a few tunes, i see myself always wanting to try different things and keep doing different tunes all the time as a friend of mine w/ the sb is always doing - as he learns, i will learn and i will make similar adjustments and never have to worry about a limited number of flashes i can do - the only drawback i can see is the potential of the ecu relearning things, but after more research i find this is something i hear from people who own the cobb product and don't really want to give the cpe one a chance, the people i've talked to w/ the sb say the only issue may be timing adjustments as far as re-learning, but there is a point where the ecu can't adapt any more and the sb takes over - it's a just a matter of tuning to that point -
i also already have a dash hawk which (i think) sees more parameters then the ap, can display more information all at once, does all the same performance tests, and can clear trouble codes
if i'm wrong about the parameters take a look here and compare -
http://www.**********forum.com/showthread.php?p=161805#post161805
fill in the stars w/su
if i'm wrong about the parameters take a look here and compare -
http://www.**********forum.com/showthread.php?p=161805#post161805
fill in the stars w/su
Friend, I'm sorry but you are the one with the misconceptions.
Full Control Flash = Full Throttle Plate Open
Cold Cut Fix = IAT Fix to solve the fuel cut associated with the IAT issue when temps drop below 40deg (where most people report getting it).
Larger MAF = Allows use of a 3in MAF
These flashes are things the SB can't do alone friend. You can't TUNE OUT the Cold Cut issue. It is impossible with the SB, you have to have the flash to fix this issue.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you are dead wrong if you think you can tune out the Cold Cut using a SB. The Cold Cut Flash was created by CPE because those people with the SB had cut all winter long and CPE worked hard to find a fix, IE the Cold Cut Flash. They did NOT design it for those without a SB (however I guess it could work as well). If you could tune it out CPE would have just told them how man. If you live anywhere that the temp drops below 40degs, you need this fix or you WILL get cut during the cold months. That is a guarantee. Now of course you can get the SB now, then later get the Cold Cut Flash to fix the cut you get in the winter. That will spread out the expense.
I really could care less with which choice you make, I simply don't like seeing fellow Mazda members buying something thinking it does one thing then finding out it does not. So my motivation here is to see you get something that meets your needs.
Keep this in mind - People will always stick with what they know and defend their purchases. Your friend is running the SB and praises it I'm sure. Had he been running the AP he would do the same. You as the buyer need to utilize some common sense and read between the lines. I can tell you have not done any research on the SB as if you actually did you would know what the Cold Cut Fix is and know that you can't tune it out with the SB, you have to have the flash. So do some reading. Try to stay away from the biased people and read between the lines as best you can. Don't take your friends word for gospel as he purchased the SB and is about as biased as can be I'm sure. The SB is not a bad product man. However, in my opinion, it is no longer the best choice now that the AP has the ATR out and you can custom tune using it. Out of the box the AP gives you way more than the SB ever will. The ONLY reason to use the SB at this point is if you want to run a 5v source (meth for instance) and let the SB control it.
DashHawk - Your DH will NOT see your Boost with the SB as the SB lies to your ECU. Thus your SB will see what your ECU sees which is NOT the actual boost. You will 100% need a Boost Gauge. The DH can monitor the rest.
Re-Tuning - Dude the SB is a Piggy Back. The problem with the ECU learning around your tune is that you really don't know unless you keep a constant vigil on it. Notice your boost spiking - Time to log. Car feels sluggish - Time to log. Didn't pull as hard as yesterday - Time to log. Sure it might level out a bit, but when temps change going from summer to winter, you start all over. That is the price you pay for a Piggy Back solution.
Seriously dude, ether listen or stop asking questions. People here are not trying to BS you as much as you would like to believe it. If you want to go with the SB, do so. Just know what you are getting when you do because of right now you seriously don't.
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As I mentioned above, the DH will not see your boost if you go with the SB as the SB lies to your ECU so all your DH will see is what the ECU sees which is not correct. Thus you will need a boost gauge.
However, the DH is a wonderful tool and I use mine in place of the AP. By having the DH I get the AP flash my ECU and put the AP back in it's box and toss it in the closet. The DH is easier to mount, shuts off with the car (which the AP does not and is annoying), can view more PIDs at once and allow you to set alarms which is nice (I have a KR alarm set starting at 2deg of KR myself). However, when Datalogging I use the AP mainly as you can capture more data over a longer period than with the DH.
The DH is one of the first things I suggest people to get. You will get more than your monies worth out of it for sure.
i already have a boost gauge and i realize the signals you get from sensors in a feedback loop aren't correct - the readings you get from all the ones that aren't are still good - and there's a lot of those
the friend i keep speaking about has every bolt on part available (including the fuel pump) the full control flash, the sb and can run wot w/ no issues in ohio 25 or less weather - maybe in all the comparing and info. gathering you are only taking into account someone that doesn't have all the bolt ons or is missing some piece of what you need like the fuel pump
Then he has a miracle car friend. I don't believe it for an instant. The only way you can TUNE out the cold cut is to lower your boost to where it does not cut in cold weather. If you call that TUNING out the problem, then by all means go for it. There is NO way he is running 19 to 20 PSI and not getting cut in cold weather. Unless of course he has the Fix from CPE.
Besides the Cold Cut Flash is only $35 more, so why would you not get it? After spending the amount of cash the PNP/SB/FCF costs, whats $35 more dollars anyway.
Look, I have tried to inform and help you out. However, it is obvious to me that you don't listen so I'm not going to waste my time. Go with the SB. I hope your friend is close by and knows how to tune so he can help you out. Enjoy the SB as it is not a bad Piggy Back if you got money to burn on it. Good luck and I hope you enjoy your SB and it proves to be everything you think it is.
Ah well there you go. 17PSI is what I would call low boost friend. You are just 1PSI above stock basically. You can run 17.9PSI on the stock controller all day and not get any cut. Our cars factory cut does not kick in until 18PSI.
Stock cars in general do not have cut issues ether. Not until they start opening up the air and pushing more boost. Most of the people who have cold weather cut are usually pushing 18-20PSI. The way people dealt with cold weather cut was to lower their boost which to those pushing the limits (Big Turbo, lots of bolt-ons Etc) that was not really a good answer as what is the point in having a tuning solution if you are really not doing more than stock. Why add a ton of mods if you are not using them to their full potential.
So I'm not surprised your car does not get cut. Seeing as you are well below the threshold. I'm also not surprised your cars ECU has not learned around it. Why would it when you are in what it calls normal operating limits.
Not knocking your tune man. If you are happy with it then by all means rock on. But honestly you are not pushing what you could be pushing and really limiting yourself. Your HP/TQ ratio should show you that. I have never in my life seen a MS3 dyno where the TQ was less than the HP unless they were running a bigger turbo and pushing around 360WHP.
Again - Why not get the cold fix as if you get the FCF you might as well get the Boost Cut Fix as it is just $35 more.
I'm sure your friend would be happy with the SB man. My point was that now that you can tune the AP yourself, you get so much more with the AP out of the box than you do the SB. Not to mention the extreme difference in cost if you get all the extras with the SB (SB/PNP/FCF Min).
Oh and your friend will not need a Boost Gauge if you don't exceed 17.9 PSI. The ECU will see up to that if you set that as your max boost in the SB and he can use his DH to see Boost then.
Stock cars in general do not have cut issues ether. Not until they start opening up the air and pushing more boost. Most of the people who have cold weather cut are usually pushing 18-20PSI. The way people dealt with cold weather cut was to lower their boost which to those pushing the limits (Big Turbo, lots of bolt-ons Etc) that was not really a good answer as what is the point in having a tuning solution if you are really not doing more than stock. Why add a ton of mods if you are not using them to their full potential.
So I'm not surprised your car does not get cut. Seeing as you are well below the threshold. I'm also not surprised your cars ECU has not learned around it. Why would it when you are in what it calls normal operating limits.
Not knocking your tune man. If you are happy with it then by all means rock on. But honestly you are not pushing what you could be pushing and really limiting yourself. Your HP/TQ ratio should show you that. I have never in my life seen a MS3 dyno where the TQ was less than the HP unless they were running a bigger turbo and pushing around 360WHP.
Again - Why not get the cold fix as if you get the FCF you might as well get the Boost Cut Fix as it is just $35 more.
I'm sure your friend would be happy with the SB man. My point was that now that you can tune the AP yourself, you get so much more with the AP out of the box than you do the SB. Not to mention the extreme difference in cost if you get all the extras with the SB (SB/PNP/FCF Min).
Oh and your friend will not need a Boost Gauge if you don't exceed 17.9 PSI. The ECU will see up to that if you set that as your max boost in the SB and he can use his DH to see Boost then.
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Actually the magic number is 19PSI setting with 18PSI being the number to make the most power/driveability. The goal is to maintain 18PSI as much as you can across the entire RPM Range.
All Cobb AP's are designed for 19PSI. They typically spike 20PSI dropping down to 19PSI and tapering to high 17PSI by 6k. Thus allowing 18PSI for a larger part of the RPM Range.
You are starting at 17PSI. What are you dropping down too by 6k?
All Cobb AP's are designed for 19PSI. They typically spike 20PSI dropping down to 19PSI and tapering to high 17PSI by 6k. Thus allowing 18PSI for a larger part of the RPM Range.
You are starting at 17PSI. What are you dropping down too by 6k?
Sounds like a plan man. If you track you might want to check out the Redline Shift Beeper in my Sig. Its a settable beeper that does 3 short beeps and a log beep at your shift point. I have it set to shift at 5800 myself (The Cobb AP Max Power is actually 6k not 5.5k) and love it as you don't have to look for a shift light, watch your RPMs or guess.
Grant it the 3 beeps and long beep come pretty damn fast in 1st and 2nd
Grant it the 3 beeps and long beep come pretty damn fast in 1st and 2nd
